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Consider this question,

Two masses A and B are connected by a massless string. A rest in equilibrium on a rough horizontal table and limiting friction is acting on it. B hang vertically at a distance R below the edge of the table. B is projected horizontally with velocity V, what is initial radius of curvature of B? coefficient of friction is μ.

enter image description here

The answer comes out to be $$ ((μ+1)/μ)R $$ In the solution we use the equation: $$T- m'g= m'( v^2/R - a),$$ where $v^2/R - a$ is the net acceleration of B.

My doubt is, what is $v^2/R$, here? Centripetal acceleration? If so, then in the formula R should represent radius of curvature.

If it isn't centripetal acceleration, then what is it? and why are we using this in the equation stated above.

Edit:I tried to analyze it with the frame of an observer moving down with acceleration $a$, and now I'm now even more confused. Like, for this observer the object seems to have radius of curvature $R$. Is the radius of curvature frame dependent?

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  • $\begingroup$ Radius of curvature is defined kinematically as the ratio between $\|v\|^2$ and the component of acceleration orthogonal to $v$. It can be defined in a coordinate-free manner and does not depend on reference frame. $\endgroup$
    – whpowell96
    Commented Mar 8 at 16:36
  • $\begingroup$ I know that radius of curvature is $v_{net}^2 / a $ , where a is component of acceleration perpendicular to net velocity (as stated by you).But I want a clearer statement as to why we took $v^2/ R $ in our equation . What is it? $\endgroup$
    – PinkAura
    Commented Mar 8 at 17:34
  • $\begingroup$ If radius of curvature does not depend on frame, then what's the flaw in my edit? radius of curvature , according to me, comes out to be R in that case? $\endgroup$
    – PinkAura
    Commented Mar 8 at 17:35
  • $\begingroup$ The key is that $B$ is not undergoing perfect circular motion, so $R\neq R_c$. Part of its acceleration is due to rotation about the fulcrum at distance $R$, which is $v^2/R$, but that is not all of its acceleration. The radius of curvature measures how the net acceleration is changing velocity, not just the acceleration due to the force from the rope a radius $R$. $\endgroup$
    – whpowell96
    Commented Mar 8 at 17:38
  • $\begingroup$ You say that $v^2/R$ is centripetal acceleration but in the formula for centripetal acceleration , doesn't that R represents radius of curvature?? $\endgroup$
    – PinkAura
    Commented Mar 8 at 17:47

2 Answers 2

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I will first find the acceleration, and then explain how to obtain the radius of curvature $R_{curv}$ and why $R_{curv} \neq R$. For reference, here's my drawing

enter image description here

The equation of motion for block A is simply $$ T - \mu m g = m a \quad \equiv \quad T = m\left( \mu g + a\right), $$ while for block B it is $$ T - m'g - F_{centr}= -m'a \quad\equiv\quad T - m'g - m' \dfrac{v^2}{R}= -m'a \\ T - m'g = m'\left(\dfrac{v^2}{R} -a \right), $$ where the minus sign in the acceleration corresponds to the fact that it "points down".

Now, we also know that, initially, limiting friction is acting on A, so $T_0 = \mu m g = m'g$ (Note: $T_0 \neq T$). So $$ m = \dfrac{m'}{\mu}. $$ We combine these three equations to get $$ m\left( \mu g + a\right) - m'g = m'\left(\dfrac{v^2}{R} -a \right)\\ \dfrac{m'}{\mu}\left( {\mu g} + a\right) - \bar{m'g} = m'\left(\dfrac{v^2}{R} -a \right)\\ \dfrac{m'}{\mu} a = m'\left(\dfrac{v^2}{R} -a \right), $$ which can be reordered to get $$ a = \dfrac{\mu}{1 + \mu} \dfrac{v^2}{R}. $$

Now, this means that the motion described by B will be the one described by the red dashed lines in my drawing, which is approximately circular. Now, what is the radius of this imaginary circle? It can be calculated as $$ \dfrac{|\mathbf{v}|^3}{|\mathbf{v}\times\dot{\mathbf{v}}|} = \dfrac{v^2}{a} = \dfrac{1 + \mu}{\mu} R, $$ and it is called the radius of curvature, $R_{curv}$, which is observer independent (as it's just a length and we're doing classical mechanics). For an explanation of why this formula is valid, I refer you to the Wikipedia page.

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  • $\begingroup$ "which is observer independent " can you pls explain what's the flaw in my edit? $\endgroup$
    – PinkAura
    Commented Mar 11 at 12:30
  • $\begingroup$ Well, the idea is that, in classical mechanics, a distance does never depend on the observer (as long as he's in an inertial frame, at least). This is not the case of a velocity, which might vary for inertial frames of reference moving at different speeds. You can even make the acceleration vary if you're moving in a non-inertial frame of reference, like a rotating frame. So I don't see how you find that the radius of curvature is frame-dependent! $\endgroup$ Commented Mar 11 at 13:31
  • $\begingroup$ "So I don't see how you find that the radius of curvature is frame-dependent!" You can see it yourself, do this same problem in the frame of an observer moving down with an acceleration $a$ , make sure you add pseudo forces, i think there won't be any linear acceleration of B in this frame, and only centripetal acceleration... $\endgroup$
    – PinkAura
    Commented Mar 11 at 14:20
  • $\begingroup$ Don't forget that in such a frame, the tension is not the same. If you account for that (which should be accounted by changing $g \to g - a$), you will see that $R_{curv}$ remains unchanged. $\endgroup$ Commented Mar 11 at 17:36
  • $\begingroup$ "Don't forget that in such a frame, the tension is not the same".. i presume real forces are same in every frame $\endgroup$
    – PinkAura
    Commented Mar 12 at 2:38
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Perhaps, answers to my recent questions have cleared this doubt. Anyway, I am writing the answer just in case if anyone needed. Note: The answer I am writing might not really be an answer but it satisfies me and was something that I was seeking.

Acceleration in polar coordinates is :

$$\\ \ddot{\mathbf{r}} = \left(\ddot{r} - r \dot{\theta}^2\right)\hat{\mathbf{r}} + \left(r \ddot{\theta} + 2\dot{r}\dot{\theta}\right)\hat{\boldsymbol{\theta}},$$

where the $\left(\ddot{r} - r \dot{\theta}^2\right)\hat{\mathbf{r}}$, term represent radial acceleration, the "$\ddot{r} $" represents linear acceleration in radial direction, and $ - r \dot{\theta}^2\hat{\mathbf{r}}$, represents centripetal acceleration in radial direction. In my question, linear radial acceleration is $a$ and centripetal acceleration is $v^2/R$.

And Radius of curvature is $v_{net}^2/a_{net} $ where $a_{net}$ is component of resultant acceleration perpendicular to $v_{net}$

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  • $\begingroup$ Any reason for downvotes? I believe the purpose of this question was not to solve the problem (which i had already solved in the question), but to explain what actually is $v²/R$, i had a belief that there cannot be any two different types of acceleration in the same direction and if an object is moving in circular motion(somewhat , as in this case) , it only has centripetal acceleration... So according to me, the answer should have been explaining different types of acceleration... As far as my "edit" is concerned, im still not satisfied with it $\endgroup$
    – PinkAura
    Commented Mar 11 at 14:29

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