1
$\begingroup$

Let’s describe briefly the Michelson-Morley experiment in terms of single photons. A photon is launched by a laser from point A and meets the BS beam-splitter 50/50 in point B. Then it has two equal possibilities.

  1. to pass to screen S in some point D
  2. to be reflected to a mirror M above in point C, then back to point B or near it. Then it can pass straight down through the BS and not fall on the screen.
  3. It can also be reflected and go to the screen say also in point D One can adjust M position so as to observe the interference pattern from many photons on the screen S (this is done routinely in Michelson Morley experiment every time before rotating on 90 degrees).

Now as every photons interferes only with itself by Dirac, in Copenhagen interpretation the two possibilities ABD and ABCBD should interfere. But the path ABD is much shorter than ABCBD. So it turns out that one possibility should wait for the other to join in point D (e.g. it must be instantaneous on BCB which of course is nonsense). This problem also arises in DSE as the paths from the two holes to a point D (different from the center) on the screen are not equal. But by very little. In MME the difference is great. Also if we move M very far from BS the probability ABCBD would not be affected, whereas I am sure that after moving M beyond coherence length there would not be an interference pattern. Which is disagreement with Copenhagen.

$\endgroup$
4
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ Why do you think Copenhagen interpretation says there will always be an interference pattern? If path lengths are different enough, then no stable phase relation will exist for different waves, and interference pattern won't be visible. Dirac most probably meant that when there is some manifestation of interference, one can interpret/describe it as interference of waves associated with only single photon, and this is supported by the fact the interference fringes are created by many detection points even when the light so weak there is at most $hf$ energy in the system at a time. $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 24 at 9:33
  • $\begingroup$ Look at Feynman path integrals formulation of QM. The paths can go to Mars and interfere. In practice many circumstances can prevent this. B.e. a small angle in the mirror C can lead (when BC is great) that the trajectory back is not near p.B. The impurities in vacuum will affect intensity etc. Dirac statement is argued in his book on QM. $\endgroup$
    – Mercury
    Commented Sep 24 at 22:30
  • $\begingroup$ Copenhagen interpretation is not about the Feynman path integral. In that integral on sums over paths, even paths of very different length, but this does not mean there will be manifest interference (e.g. fringes) in experiment involving two waves traversing different paths. I do not see what your issue is. $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 24 at 22:35
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ Could DSE mean ‘Double Slit Experiment’? And BS does not mean what it colloquially means, also not the distance from B to the screen S, but beam splitter? Please don’t write code. $\endgroup$
    – my2cts
    Commented Sep 25 at 9:40

2 Answers 2

0
$\begingroup$

The Copenhagen interpretation (CI) claims that it is impossible to understand what is happening in experiments and that trying to give such an explanation is heresy. So the CI gives no explanation of what is happening in interference experiments or in any other kind of experiment.

Quantum theory, when taken seriously as an account of what is happening in reality, does gives explanations. You write:

Now as every photons interferes only with itself by Dirac, in Copenhagen interpretation the two possibilities ABD and ABCBD should interfere. But the path ABD is much shorter than ABCBD. So it turns out that one possibility should wait for the other to join in point D (e.g. it must be instantaneous on BCB which of course is nonsense).

When the EM field interacts with a detector (or atom or whatever) the detector can only absorb energy from the field at a given wavelength in discrete amounts: the name we give to such a discrete amount of energy is a photon. Two photons of the same energy are not distinguishable by any physical process. As such, there is in general no fact of the matter about whether two photons of the same energy and other observables are the same photon.

This problem also arises in DSE as the paths from the two holes to a point D (different from the center) on the screen are not equal. But by very little. In MME the difference is great. Also if we move M very far from BS the probability ABCBD would not be affected, whereas I am sure that after moving M beyond coherence length there would not be an interference pattern.

The coherence length is a property of how the phases of the field change over time.

Both the CI and the statistical intepretation refuse to explain the outcomes of experiments and try to stick purely to making predictions in terms of square amplitudes of states. This stance doesn't make any sense since in general square amplitudes of states don't act like probabilities during interference experiments, see Section 2 of this paper:

https://arxiv.org/abs/math/9911150

As such, if you want to use quantum theory to make predictions you have to explain when and why interference effects are significant and when they can be neglected. Decoherence theory explains when interference effects can be neglected and so it is common for advocates of the statistical and Copenhagen interpretations to claim that decoherence theory is wrong:

https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0605249

Some advocates of these interpretations do interesting calculations but their philosophy is a dead end.

$\endgroup$
6
  • $\begingroup$ You wrote "So the CI gives no explanation of what is happening in interference experiments or in any other kind of experiment. Quantum theory, when taken seriously as an account of what is happening in reality, does gives explanations." Did you mean "does not give explanations"? $\endgroup$
    – Mercury
    Commented Sep 24 at 19:02
  • $\begingroup$ An explanation of the outcome of an experiment is an account of what is happening in reality to produce that outcome. The CI claims that no such account exists. $\endgroup$
    – alanf
    Commented Sep 24 at 21:26
  • $\begingroup$ Do you distinguish CI and QM or accept that they coincide today? De Broglie Bohm seems more suitable to explain my question because the tail of a real wave can interfere at point B with its head, and then guide the particle to max spot on the screen. $\endgroup$
    – Mercury
    Commented Sep 24 at 22:18
  • $\begingroup$ No. QM leads to the MWI arxiv.org/abs/1111.2189 and explains interference effects straightforwardly because the relevant equations of motion describe what is happening in reality. de Broglie Bohm doesn't explain anything more than Everett arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0403094 and has severe problems with explaining the predictions of relativistic quantum theories unlike Everett arxiv.org/abs/2205.00568 $\endgroup$
    – alanf
    Commented Sep 25 at 6:27
  • $\begingroup$ Sorry but i am not fan of MWI. Its even worse than CI. Dont you think that this cloning of Universes is against conservation laws on a huge scale? $\endgroup$
    – Mercury
    Commented Sep 26 at 5:40
0
$\begingroup$

One problem is thinking of a photon (or perhaps even waves in general), as if it were a particle:
for a particle we may reason about the time it takes from its emission to reach another point, whereas for a wave we solve wave equation with the boundary conditions (i.e., assuming that the wave is present everywhere). Unfortunately, if your undergraduate studies devoted much more time to classical mechanics than to classical E&M (as is often the case), it is bound to play some evil jokes when trying to understand particle-wave duality.

One could object that the speed of light is finite, and that the photon mode cannot have a finite amplitude immediately everywhere after the device is turned on. Indeed, here we have to describe the propagation of a wave front - but there is nothing particularly quantum about it, that is the same problem would emerge, if we reasoned about a classical Michelson-Morley interferometer. But this latter was never intended to work in such non-stationary conditions - we are observing stationary picture here, averaged over many photons.

This brings us to another important point - observations in "classical" quantum mechanical experiments, at least as far as Copengahenn interpretation is illustrated, are all done for a very large number of particles - i.e., averaged over a quantum ensemble. Same is true, e.g, for a two slit experiment, the image on the screen is not created by a single electron (each of which is detected at a point), but results from detecting many electrons successively passing through slits, one-by-one.

Update
Restating the problem
Rather than considering Michelson interferometer, one could consider a simpler Fabri-Perot one, or even a wave reflected by a mirror. Moreover, the problem in the Q. arises not only for electromagnetic waves, but any other type - elastic waves in beams, waves in a cord, sound waves in an organ tube, etc.: How can we observe interference, if the forward wave arrives to the detector before the reflected wave? The only special factor for EM waves is that we can consider them at very low intensities, when they have to be quantized (although such experiments can be also done for phonons, i.e., elastic waves in clean micro-crystals.)

One-mirror interferometer
Let us for now stick to a single wave reflected by a mirror:
enter image description here
(image source) The wave is described by a generic wave equation $$ \frac{\partial^2 u(x,t)}{\partial x^2}-\frac{1}{c^2}\frac{\partial^2 u(x,t)}{\partial t^2}=0,$$ with the boundary condition on the mirror, which I take for simplicity to be $u(0,t)=0$. The eigenmodes of the interferometer are thus $$ u_k(x,t)=a_k\sin(kx)e^{-i\omega_k t} + a_k^*\sin(kx)e^{i\omega_k t} $$ If we wish to work with a quantum field, we perform canonical quantization, replacing $a_k,a_k^*$ by operators and imposing a commutation relation (up to the coefficients that I disregard here): $$ a_k,a_k^*\longrightarrow \hat{a}_k,\hat{a}_k^\dagger,\\ [\hat{a}_k, \hat{a}_{k'}^\dagger]=\delta_{k,k'}. $$ (See Canonical quantization, Quantization of EM field.)

Creation of a photon then means adding an excitation to a specific mode of the EM field: $$ \hat{a}_k^\dagger |\phi\rangle, $$ where $|\phi\rangle$ is a state in a Fock space. (note that it is not necessarily a vacuum state - some photons might be already present.) But note that the underlying mode structure already exists - the only difference between the quantum and the classical case is how we describe detection (at point $x_0$: $$ \text{Classical measurement: }I(x_0,t)=|u(x_0,t)|^2,\\ \text{Quantum measurement: }I(x_0,t)=\langle\phi|u^\dagger(x_0,t)u(x_0,t)|\phi\rangle. $$ In case of a high photon occupation numbers, $\langle \phi|\hat{a}_k^\dagger \hat{a}_k|\phi\rangle\gg 1$ the quantum results approaches the classical one - this is also the regime in which functions classical Michelson-Morley interferometer.

Forward and reflected wave
One thing that was swept under the carpet in the preceeding discussion is that Michelson-Morley interferometer works in a stationary regime - the light was turned on long time ago, and enough time has passed for the wave to propagate from the light source to the mirror and back, and a stable interference patternn has been established. In other words, MM interferometer proves that phase velocity of light is constant - without specifically addressing the group velocity, which could be studied only by observing the transient behavior - i.e., how the interference pattern is established after the light turned off.

One caveat here is the time of propagation vs. the time of emission - no light source emits photons instantly. In fact, the most high-notch quantum experiments are performed on a tabletop, where the emission time of a laser is longer than the propagation time of a photon, and the whole mode structure is "sampled" before the photon is actually "emitted". One needs to sue special techniques to obtain ultrashort pulses, which would allow to model transient behavior of MM interferometer.

If we do assume for the sake of discussion that the emission time is much shorter than the time of light propagation between the mirrors (e.g., because the interferometer is extremely big), then we have to consider a behavior of a wave front, i.e., a superposition of many waves, so that the amplitude increases from zero to a finite value in a narrow space region: $$ u(x,t)=\sum_k f(k)u_k(x,t). $$ In the quantum case it means that our initial photon state was created by an operator $$ \hat{A}^\dagger|vac\rangle=\sum_k f(k)a_k|vac\rangle. $$ The forward wave then indeed reaches the detector before the reflected waves, as we see in the gig below. enter image description here
(image source)

The problem with this gif, is that it shows propagation of a wave packet, rather than a wave front, which would look like a step function, rather than a Gaussian - in case of a wave front we could speak of interference between the forward and the backward wave: enter image description here

As a simple model we can take a hyperbolic tangent: $$ u(x,t)=A\tanh\left[\omega t - k(L+x)\right] -A\tanh\left[\omega t - k(L-x)\right] $$ This wave (guessed by the method of images) would not violate the boundary conditions, as $u(0,t)=0$. At time $t=0$ the wave front starts from the point $x=L$. Note that the solution applies only to the region $[-L,0]$, between the light source and the mirror (see the very first image) - we don't care about the values fro $x>0$, which are beyond the mirror.

The position of the front of the forward wave (the first term) is $$x_{forward}(t) =\frac{\omega}{k}t-L=ct-L,$$ whereas the position of the backward front is $$x_{back}(t) =L-\frac{\omega}{k}t=L-ct.$$

  • The forward front reaches the detector at $x_0$ at time $t_0=(x_0+L)/c$.
  • The backward front emerges from after the reflection from the mirror at $t_1=L/c>t_0$
  • Finally, the backward front reaches the detector at $t_2=(L-x_0)/c$ (note that $x_0<0$ with the zero of the axis at the mirror). At this point the interference begins, which in the case of this simple wave simply amounts to the cancellation of the forward wave by the reflected one.

Thus, if we measure the intensity at $t < t_1$, we observe only the forward way, whereas at times $t>t_2$ we observe interference.

Quantum case and Copenhagen interpretation
In quantum case the above picture is augmented by treating $A$ as an operator, whose amplitude is described according to the initial state with $n$ photons: $$ |n\rangle=\left(A^\dagger\right)^n|vac\rangle, $$ whereas the field operator is now $$ u^\dagger(x,t)=A^\dagger\left\{\tanh\left[\omega t - k(L+x)\right] -\tanh\left[\omega t - k(L-x)\right]\right\}. $$

The quantum nature of light then means that during detection we remove photons - at least one photon. Thus, if we detect a photon at times $t<t_1$, we detect only the forward wave, and no interference is observed. If we detect at times $t>t-2$, the interference pattern is measured (cancellation.)

As stated above, in MM experiments the photon occupation numbers are very high, and removing a single photon amounts to negligeable quantum fluctuations. One can however think of an experimental setting similar to the one used in the discussion of the two-slit experiment, where electrons/photons are incident one-by-one. In this case we have a probability of detecting the photon at times $t_1$ and $t_2$. Since these two detection possibilities are mutually exclusive, we have $p_1+p_2=1$. These probabilities, predicted by the matrix element of the field calculated at times $t_1,t_2$ can be deduce by performing many successive measurements, i.e., by averaging over a quantum ensemble - out of $N$ events, only in $p_1N$ of them the photon will be detected at time $t_1$. The ensemble is required, since measurement destroys the photon (as per Copenhagen interpretation.)

Note that measurement at$t_1$ also destroys interference - just like it does in a two-slit experiment, if we try to measure through which experiment an electron passed.

Conclusion
The Copenhagen interpretation survives this test. This is not surprizing - various interpretations of QM are called interpretations, precisely because all of them accommodate experimental observations. If any experiments contradicted this interpretation, it would long ago be relegated to the status of a disproved hypothesis, while the "correct" interpretation would have become a physical theory.

$\endgroup$
19
  • $\begingroup$ Afaiu you are explaining it with ..... ? 1. Unlimited velocity of probability waves but then you agree there is wavefront? Or with ..?. 2. solve Schrodinger and don't argue nothing? Copenhagen is not just for ensembles its for everything. In 2023 articles on MZI it was shown that when splitting in two paths parts of magnetic moment is in one path and parts in the other. $\endgroup$
    – Mercury
    Commented Sep 23 at 14:29
  • $\begingroup$ @Mercury Copenhagen implies an ensemble measurement. If you speak of a single photon - you create it in a specific mode, whereas a wavefront is more than a single mode (and more than one photon - rather a photon in a superposition of states.) I tried to make it as simple as possible for those who begin to study QM. $\endgroup$
    – Roger V.
    Commented Sep 23 at 14:58
  • $\begingroup$ Measurements on many photons reveal the pattern, but that does not imply that photons are somehow connected and act as a whole entity like ensemble. Every photon acts on its own and interferes with its own wave function (or probability paths or probability). One photon per second in a measurement of billion events what ensemble is there, though of course the pattern emerges at the end. The notion of ensemble was developed by Ballantine afair but is not accepted. $\endgroup$
    – Mercury
    Commented Sep 23 at 18:50
  • $\begingroup$ I dont know - 1. are trying to imply that a photon which went ABCBD interferes with probability of next photon or some other photon in the ensemble which was at AB at the same moment? 2. If you insist there is no photons between measurements (even like wave packet of Energy) i remind that a measurement at any point on the path will click 100%. In this sense if one closes p.A (before photon reaches B on root ABCB) one can check if this the case in 1. (This also checks if probability moves with c or is omnipresent). $\endgroup$
    – Mercury
    Commented Sep 23 at 19:24
  • $\begingroup$ @Mercury try to make the same argument about the classical light. Photons are not less of waves than classical light... it us thinking of them as particles that misleads you. Do you have the bases of QFT/light quantization ? $\endgroup$
    – Roger V.
    Commented Sep 23 at 19:45

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service and acknowledge you have read our privacy policy.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.