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In the following picture, the blue bar represents a rod that is falling from the sky and the black line represents the ground. Hence, in the picture, the moment of the impact is shown. We assume the ground to be frictionless. Now, when time goes on, the rest of the rod will move towards the ground. However, while doing so, the rod will slide on the ground to the left (green arrow). At the contact point, there will be a normal force (red arrow). The gravitational force is also depcited by a red arrow.

enter image description here

Are the normal force and the gravitational force equal in magnitude and opposite (as indicated in the picture)? And where is the reaction force to the force acting in the direction of the green arrow?

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    $\begingroup$ “ Am I right that the normal force is the reaction force to gravity (and hence equal in magnitude)?” Absolutely not… if Newton’s third law actually worked like that, nothing could ever start moving. $\endgroup$
    – knzhou
    Commented Nov 13, 2021 at 22:04
  • $\begingroup$ @knzhou Sorry, I noticed I confused this. Thank you! I reformulated the question. $\endgroup$
    – StefanH
    Commented Nov 13, 2021 at 22:05
  • $\begingroup$ I believe this is a duplicate of physics.stackexchange.com/q/102120 . Don’t want to use my “dupe hammer”… $\endgroup$
    – Floris
    Commented Nov 14, 2021 at 13:46
  • $\begingroup$ @Floris Thank you. I was not aware of the other question. It considers the same situation, of course. However, I ask a different question related to forces and reaction forces, whereas in the linked question the OP asks about the computation of the torque. $\endgroup$
    – StefanH
    Commented Nov 14, 2021 at 14:01
  • $\begingroup$ @StefanH when you read the calculation you will see the answer is “no the reaction force is not equal to the gravitational force - that is why the situation is dynamic, things accelerate.” In the limiting case where the rod is vertical it bounces back up. It couldn’t do that if the reaction was equal to the gravitational force, it would just sit there. $\endgroup$
    – Floris
    Commented Nov 14, 2021 at 14:04

4 Answers 4

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Vertical forces. The reaction to the normal force from the ground on the rod is the normal force from the rod on the ground. The reaction to the gravitational force from the Earth on the rod is the gravitational force from the rod on the Earth. While the normal force and gravitational force are opposite in direction here, there's no reason they must be equal in magnitude.

Horizontal forces. The surface is frictionless; hence, there are no horizontal forces, i.e. no forces acting in the direction of the green arrow.

Motion of the rod. Since there are no horizontal forces acting on the rod, momentum is conserved in the horizontal direction. This means the trajectory of the center of mass of the rod follows a straight vertical line. However, you're still right that the left end of the rod will accelerate to the left when it impacts the ground. This doesn't contradict anything we've established, since internal forces are responsible for the acceleration of this piece of the rod. Note that the right end of the rod accelerates with the same magnitude to the right when this happens, so the horizontal acceleration of the center of mass of the rod remains zero.

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  • $\begingroup$ Ok. How do I determine the strength of the normal force? $\endgroup$
    – StefanH
    Commented Nov 13, 2021 at 22:47
  • $\begingroup$ @StefanH I'd use conservation of energy (remember to consider gravitational potential, rotational kinetic, and translational kinetic energy) and Newton's second law. $\endgroup$
    – DanDan面
    Commented Nov 13, 2021 at 23:12
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    $\begingroup$ @StephanH Since this problem has a frictionless constraint, I suggest using Lagrange's equations. See a physics mechanics test such as Symon, Mechanics or Goldstein, Classical Mechanics for the details of this approach.. $\endgroup$
    – John Darby
    Commented Nov 14, 2021 at 3:59
  • $\begingroup$ Thank you. I do not know how to apply Lagrange's equations, but I will take a look. However, what meanwhile came to my mind is, if we treat the rod and the earth both as rigid bodies, then the usual equations of collision (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution) at the contact point should work. It depends on the speed of the rod what happens, but in general there will be a bouncing back and forth causes by repelling force and gravity for ellastic collision. But here, I assumed the rods end does not bounce, i.e., more an inelastic collision;forces depend on impulse change $\endgroup$
    – StefanH
    Commented Nov 14, 2021 at 14:36
  • $\begingroup$ The normal force at the point of contact produces a torque about the center of mass. this produces an angular acceleration and an associated tangential acceleration for the end of the rod. I would agree with DanDan that the horizontal forces at the end of the rod are internal. $\endgroup$
    – R.W. Bird
    Commented Nov 14, 2021 at 14:38
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The acceleration of the center of mass of the rod is the net force on the rod divided by the mass of the rod.

In reality the rod will bounce as it impacts the ground, but let's assume it does not to address your question.

The net force downward at the instant of impact is the force of gravity minus the normal force and has no sideways component, so the center of mass moves only vertically downward; sideways motion of the center of mass does not occur due to the rod slipping sideways to the left as shown by your green arrow. There is no force sideways on the rod; just sideways slipping of the rod.

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Assume the rod to be of mass $m$, uniform and completely rigid. The floor is also perfectly rigid and there's no friction between floor and rod, which prevents any sideways motion on or after impact.

The collision is therefore perfectly elastic.

The translational kinetic energy is completely converted to rotational kinetic energy, for rotation about the CoG:

$$\frac12 mv^2=\frac12 I\omega^2$$ where $v$ is the translational velocity of the rod at impact. $$\frac12 mv^2=\frac12 \frac{1}{12}mL^2 \omega^2$$ $$v^2=\frac{1}{12}L^2\omega^2$$ $$\omega=2\sqrt{3}\frac{v}{L}$$

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  • $\begingroup$ Your assumption that the energy is completely converted is false - the fraction converted will depend on the angle at impact ( thought experiment: what happens when the rod is nearly vertical? It bounces). The rotation will accelerate while the c.o.m. decelerates until contact is broken. Much more interesting math than you showed. $\endgroup$
    – Floris
    Commented Nov 14, 2021 at 0:33
  • $\begingroup$ @Floris I'm not concerned about what actually happens during the collision, only with pre and post collision energies. But your vertical bounce suggestion has me thinking. Maybe you could formulate an answer? $\endgroup$
    – Gert
    Commented Nov 14, 2021 at 8:47
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the Energy is:

$$E=\frac 12\,m{v}^{2}+\frac 12\,I_{{D}}{\omega}^{2}+m\,g\,h=0$$

at $~t=0$

$$E_i=E\left(v=0~,\omega=0~,h=h_0\right)$$ and at the final position

$$E_f=E\left(h=\frac{L}{2}\,\sin(\alpha)\right)$$

with $~E_i=E_f~$ you obtain the velocity of the center of mass at the final position $$v_{\text{CM}}^2=-{\frac {I_{{D}}{\omega}^{2}+m\,g\,L\sin \left( \alpha \right) -2\,m\,g\,h_{{0 }}}{m}} $$

the velocity at the contact point $~P~$ is:

\begin{align*} \vec v_P= \begin{bmatrix} w_x \\ w_y \\ w_z \\ \end{bmatrix}= \begin{bmatrix} 0 \\ v_{\text{CM}} \\ 0 \\ \end{bmatrix}+ \begin{bmatrix} 0 \\ 0 \\ \omega \\ \end{bmatrix}\times \frac L2\begin{bmatrix} \cos(\alpha) \\ \sin(\alpha) \\ 0 \\ \end{bmatrix} \end{align*}

the collision equations

$$m\,(v_y-w_y)=dp_y\\ m\,(v_x-w_x)=0\\ v_y=-w_y$$

from here you obtain the impuls $~dp_y~$ integrating you obtain the reaction force $~F_y$

$$F_y=\int dp_y\,dt=-\omega\,L\cos \left( \alpha \right) m+2\,\sqrt {-m \left( I_{{D}}{ \omega}^{2}+m\,g\,L\sin \left( \alpha \right) -2\,m\,g\,h_{{0}} \right) } \,t$$

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  • $\begingroup$ Nice solution; one comment. As in most impulse problems, you do not know the time over which the impulsive force acts; so the above solution contains the unknown time t for the normal force. $\endgroup$
    – John Darby
    Commented Nov 14, 2021 at 23:31
  • $\begingroup$ @john Darby you are right, I also had problem with this situation $\endgroup$
    – Eli
    Commented Nov 15, 2021 at 7:38

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