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I'm fairly new to this topic, so please excuse any amateurism.

I'm confused about how a boson (i.e a particle that does not obey Pauli's exclusion principle) can have mass. For example, W and Z bosons have mass, as does a helium nucleus.

How can two particles that have mass be in the same place at the same time?

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    $\begingroup$ Can you elaborate on why having mass is an issue? $\endgroup$ Commented May 14, 2021 at 0:52
  • $\begingroup$ If something has 'mass', it has physical presence. Obviously two light waves can overlap each other. However, I cannot, for example, overlap my hands together, because each has a mass and cannot exist in the same position at the same time. Thus, I am confused about how multiple bosons with mass can occupy precisely the same quantum numbers. $\endgroup$ Commented May 14, 2021 at 5:07
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    $\begingroup$ "If something has 'mass', it has physical presence." - photons are massless, yet they clearly have physical presence $\endgroup$ Commented May 14, 2021 at 5:44
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    $\begingroup$ @LilyMorgan I'm not sure there's much of an answer here outside "you're assuming that objects with mass can't overlap one another, and that assumption is wrong." Often our intuition doesn't match physical reality, especially when it comes to quantum mechanics. $\endgroup$
    – Chris
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 5:50
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    $\begingroup$ @LilyMorgan This does not answer your question, but remember that the reason that your hands cannot overlap is NOT that they have mass. It is also not because of the Pauli exclusion principle (given that your hands are made out of fermions) In the end it is because there is electromagnetic repulsion between electrons and nuclei. If this force would not be there, there would be plenty of space to overlap both hands (but of course unfortunately we all also would not have hands or exist at all). $\endgroup$
    – Koschi
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 6:49

3 Answers 3

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You clarify in a comment:

If something has 'mass', it has physical presence. Obviously two light waves can overlap each other. However, I cannot, for example, overlap my hands together, because each has a mass and cannot exist in the same position at the same time.

The correspondence between mass and physical presence is a good one in the macroscopic world. However, one of the repeated lessons of quantum mechanics is that your macroscopic intuitions are related to the microscopic world in surprisingly complicated ways.

Here your macroscopic intuition is just failing you completely. It’s fermions that can’t overlap; we just happen to live in a world where room-temperature electrons (which happen to be fermions) are major constituent of matter. Multiple bosons, even composite bosons which are constructed from pairs of fermions, can occupy the same state. This ability to overlap gives rise to several counterintuitive properties of Bose-Einstein condensates, to some surprising phenomena in the flow of superfluid helium, to many important properties about superconductivity, and more examples.

As for why bosons can overlap and fermions can’t: it’s complicated. A good introductory textbook on quantum mechanics will have an inadequate explanation near the middle; a good graduate-level course on quantum field theory will have a better explanation near the end. I lack the talent to squeeze such an explanation into this answer.

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  • $\begingroup$ Came here to say this same thing. What is "physical presence" exactly? Is it just the quality of existing in such a way that something else can't take up the same space as you? If so that's circular reasoning to then suggest it means mass = exclusion principle. $\endgroup$
    – Señor O
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 6:24
  • $\begingroup$ I think the difference at the quantum frame is that massless particles cannot form QM bound states, to be liable to the Pauli exclusion. $\endgroup$
    – anna v
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 8:16
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At the quantum mechanical level of particle interactions one does not have trajectories , one has probability loci: i.e. when measuring a particle how probable it is to be found at x,y,z, at time t. For interacting particles and particularly for bound states where in the Bohr model were orbits in the quantum mechanical solutions they are orbitals, with very specific quantum numbers . The Pauli principle applies to these orbitals and given quantum numbers for defining the state.

How can two particles that have mass be in the same place at the same time?

If you look at the hydrogen orbitals you will see that even the electrons can have a probability to be on the proton space, for S=0, without any interaction happening, because there is not enough energy. This probability for nuclei leads to beta decay by capturing the S=0 electron to turn a neutron into a proton when there is enough energy .

It is hard to think of a possibility of getting two Z in an interaction, due to the large masses involved, the quantum number constraints, and the weak coupling constant. The same for pions kaons etc which decay very fast to experiment with (make a pionic atom with two pions in the same state, for example). From what I know the concept is useful in quantum models of solid state for example.

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You can bring two massive particles as close together as you want. The "force" introduced by the exclusion principle can be broken in the case of fermions (collapsing neutron star, where all particles are spin half neutrons). Electrons can get as close together as you want. Just shoot two of them head-on towards each other. The exclusion principle can't hold them from being on top of each other. If the exclusion principle can't do this for massive fermions, it certainly cannot do that for massive bosons. Though exactly at the same place they will never be.

Regarding your hands. Luckily they don't fuse if you clap them. But if you smash them together at an enormous speed they do fuse. Just don't try this when your mother is present...

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  • $\begingroup$ I don't think this answer helps. A neutron star is held STABLE by the exclusion principle, and overcoming this to collapse is an extreme event... Also, it is not easy to shoot electrons together to bring them "as close as you want"... A procedure we can only do in accelerators. I think it is debatable, in both cases (black holes, fundamental interactions at acc.), if the involved particles are really at the same spacetime point, while quantum mechanically being at the same space-time point is no problem for bosons, massive or not, without need for huge energies/extreme situations. $\endgroup$
    – Koschi
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 7:44
  • $\begingroup$ @Koschi A neutron star is held stable indeed because of the exclusion principle. But my point is that one day the neutron star will collapse, so the exclusion principle can be overcome. The particles constituting the neutron star (whatever they are) will end up at the same place, a point. So when this is possible for these particles (fermions) it can certainly be accomplished for bosons. $\endgroup$ Commented May 14, 2021 at 7:52
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    $\begingroup$ Regarding the first point: I never heard about this. If there is no merger, for example with another neutron star, with enough resulting mass to form a black hole, the neutron star will not collapse... Do you have a reference that predicts this? Second: A black hole does NOT mean that all particles collapse to "a point". This is a prediction of general relativity, but almost everyone assumes that this is an incorrect description on a quantum level, leaving it to the unknown what happens behind the event horizon, especially about how a singularity is prevented by quantum gravity effects. $\endgroup$
    – Koschi
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 8:24
  • $\begingroup$ Look here; public.nrao.edu/ask/…. If a neutron star is massive enough it just collapses. When it has gathered enough mass from its neighborhood for example. The uncertainty principle must be circumvented if a black hole forms. When the degeneracy pressure has been overcome, the neutron star collapses. $\endgroup$ Commented May 14, 2021 at 8:30
  • $\begingroup$ Thanks, but this is what I meant... it can collapse if it accretes mass from somewhere else. Still, it is widely accepted that the interior of the resulting black hole must be described by a quantum gravity, rendering the prediction of the singularity with all particles at one point debatable. $\endgroup$
    – Koschi
    Commented May 14, 2021 at 8:34

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