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This is a trivial question probably, i have a doubt when considering the signs for the Lagrangian for a charged particle in an electromagnetic field.

Considering that the Lagrangian for a charged particle in an electromagnetic field is given as $$L = \frac{m v^2}{2} + q \vec{v} \cdot \vec{A} - q \phi \ \ \ \ \text{or} \ \ \ \ L = \frac{m v^2}{2} - q \vec{v} \cdot \vec{A} + q \phi$$ And that the equation of motion for this Lagrangian is associated with the Lorentz force as $$m \dot{v} = q(E + v \times B) \ \ \ \ or \ \ \ \ m \dot{v} = -q(E + v \times B)$$ My doubt is:

If I have the Lagrangian as $$L = \frac{m v^2}{2} - q \vec{v} \cdot \vec{A} - q \phi$$ that gives the equation of motion as $$m \dot{v} = q(-E + v \times B)$$

Does this equation of motion still represents the Lorentz force even with the difference in signs, or $E$ and $B$ must have the same sign?

Is it correct to interpret this Lagrangian as a charged particle in an electromagnetic field?

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  • $\begingroup$ I think you mean "question," not "doubt." These are similar, but not the same. $\endgroup$
    – hft
    Commented Aug 9 at 18:07
  • $\begingroup$ @hft "doubt" is Hinglish for "question". $\endgroup$
    – DanielC
    Commented Aug 9 at 18:44

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The preferred formula to teach, for the Lagrangian of non-relativistic charged particle in external field, is $$ L(\mathbf r,\mathbf v,t) = \frac{1}{2}mv^2 - q\phi(\mathbf{r},t) + q\mathbf{v}\cdot \mathbf{A}(\mathbf{r},t). $$ This gives correct equations of motion, and can easily be recalled from the "mnemotechnic rule" that such Lagrangian should be like $T-U$ in classical mechanics, where $T$ is kinetic energy and $U$ is electric potential energy; $q\phi$ is electric potential energy, so it has to appear with a minus in $L$. The other term $q\mathbf v\cdot \mathbf{A}$ has nothing to do with energy, but it should appear there with opposite sign (compared to $q\phi$). This can be quickly recalled from the fun fact that the whole group of interaction terms in $L$ is the sum $\sum_\mu A_\mu u^\mu$ (looks like product of four-vectors, even though it isn't necessarily), in which $A_0$ is minus electric potential.

If I have the Lagrangian as $$L = \frac{m v^2}{2} - q \vec{v} \cdot \vec{A} - q \phi$$ that gives the equation of motion as $$m \dot{v} = q(-E + v \times B)$$

Does this equation of motion still represents the Lorentz force even with the difference in signs, or $E$ and $B$ must have the same sign?

If $\mathbf A$ is the standard vector potential (e.g. Coulomb gauge), from the proposed $L$ and the Euler-Lagrange equations, you won't get the equation $m \dot{\mathbf v} = q(-\mathbf E + \mathbf v \times\mathbf B)$, because there is no $\mathbf E,\mathbf B$ in the Lagrangian; what you will get is

$$ m\dot{\mathbf v} = q(-\nabla \phi + \partial_t \mathbf A) - q\mathbf v \times \nabla \times \mathbf A $$

This is not the standard expression for Lorentz force, however, it can be made valid in a weird, non-standard way, where $\mathbf A$ does not denote a magnetic vector potential that obeys (the defining property) $\mathbf{B} = \nabla \times \mathbf A$ and the relation $\mathbf E = -\nabla \phi - \partial_t\mathbf A$, but it is a different thing, obeying $\mathbf B = - \nabla \times \mathbf A$ and $\mathbf E = -\nabla \phi + \partial_t\mathbf A$ instead.

Only then we can rewrite the above as $$ m\dot{\mathbf v} = q\mathbf E + q\mathbf v\times \mathbf B. $$

Thus if $\mathbf A$ means minus standard vector potential (which is mathematically permissible), the above Lagrangian gives the correct equations, compatible with the Lorentz force formula. But all this is in a non-standard and confusing way, and there is no upside.

Is it correct to interpret this Lagrangian as a charged particle in an electromagnetic field?

If $\mathbf A$ is minus vector potential, this Lagrangian is a non-standard, but a valid Lagrangian for a charged particle in external (fixed) EM field. It implies the correct equations of motion for the particle.

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When describing the motion of a particle of charge $q$ (either positive or negative) in electric and magnetic fields $E(x,t),B(x,t)$, the only Lagrangian you need is the first one with its corresponding equation of motion (EOM): $$ 𝐿=\frac{mv^2}{2}+𝑞{\vec v}\cdot\vec{A}−𝑞\phi $$ $$ m\dot v=q(E+v\times B) $$

You could consider other Lagrangians form the point of view of mathematical curiosity. The variables in them such as q,A,\phi stop having the original unambiguous meaning of particle charge, electic fields strength, and magnetic field strength.

You could have caused the same confusion by wondering what if one considers Lagrangian with a kinetic term $-\frac{mv^2}{2}$. Then it would give trajectories of particle with mass $-m$. But why would do that?

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  • $\begingroup$ The proposed Lagrangian does not give $\mathbf E-\mathbf v\times \mathbf B$ or $-\mathbf E+\mathbf v\times \mathbf B$. This is because change of sign in $\phi$ term or $\mathbf A$ term always affects electric field, as it depends on both potentials $\mathbf E = -\nabla\phi -\partial_t \mathbf A$. $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 9 at 17:45
  • $\begingroup$ Oh, of course, thank you. Should I delete the answer? I am new to answering questions here so I'm not sure what to do when you realize it's incorrect. $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 9 at 17:49
  • $\begingroup$ Better fix it, if possible. Delete if you do not want it seen by all visitors (it won't actually get deleted, logged-in users will still be able to see it). $\endgroup$ Commented Aug 9 at 17:52

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