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In context of a two spin $\frac{1}{2}$ particle systems, we know that,

$\vert S=0, m = 0 \rangle = \frac{1}{\sqrt2}(\vert\uparrow\downarrow\rangle - \vert\downarrow\uparrow\rangle)$

$\vert S=1, m = 0 \rangle = \frac{1}{\sqrt2}(\vert\uparrow\downarrow\rangle + \vert\downarrow\uparrow\rangle) $

I understand they are orthogonal for states being orthonormal and antisymmetic for satisfying the exclusion principle. But can I not flip the positive and negative signs and still have orthogonal states?

The best answer I could find used the spin ladder operators to act on the states. Looking for a more "physical" answer if it exists.

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    $\begingroup$ They have different $S$, which is a physically observable quantity. What else are you looking for? $\endgroup$
    – Meng Cheng
    Commented Sep 24, 2022 at 17:35
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    $\begingroup$ @MengCheng I started along those lines. For S = 1, The constitute's "net" spin was along the same direction. Thus adding up. But this direction was orthogonal to the spin direction, thus m=0. For S=0, The net spin was opposite to each other making S=0. But could reach the states and the corresponding signs using this line of reasoning. $\endgroup$
    – Lost_Soul
    Commented Sep 24, 2022 at 17:37
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    $\begingroup$ ^ this is a very confused comment. Since they have different $S$ any property that is S-dependent will be different. For instance, they would split differently in a Stern-Gerlach apparatus. $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 24, 2022 at 18:06
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    $\begingroup$ @ZeroTheHero I think the OP was looking for (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics) the graphs of the hydrogen's electron's wave function's amplitude of $s=0$ and $s=1$. $\endgroup$ Commented Sep 24, 2022 at 18:20
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    $\begingroup$ @ZeroTheHero Perhaps I should have phrased it as. "Any physical way to reach the representation of the states M=0S=0 and M=0S=1?" $\endgroup$
    – Lost_Soul
    Commented Sep 24, 2022 at 18:22

1 Answer 1

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In context of a two spin $\frac{1}{2}$ particle systems, we know that,

$\vert S=0, m = 0 \rangle = \frac{1}{\sqrt2}(\vert\uparrow\downarrow\rangle - \vert\downarrow\uparrow\rangle)$

$\vert S=1, m = 0 \rangle = \frac{1}{\sqrt2}(\vert\uparrow\downarrow\rangle + \vert\downarrow\uparrow\rangle) $

I understand they are orthogonal for states being orthonormal and antisymmetic for satisfying the exclusion principle.

They or orthogonal to each other because: $$ <S=0,m=0|S=1,m=0> = 0 $$

The rest of what you wrote ("for states being orthonormal and antisymmetic for satisfying the exclusion principle") doesn't make sense to me, or at least it doesn't make sense why you wrote it. You seem to be justifying their orthogonality with this sentence fragment. But the states are just orthogonal, full stop.

But can I not flip the positive and negative signs and still have orthogonal states?

Which sign? You can flip the overall sign or add any overall phase and they states will still be orthogonal. If you flip the middle sign then you change one state into the other.

The best answer I could find used the spin ladder operators to act on the states. Looking for a more "physical" answer if it exists.

The "physical" answer is that the |S=1,m=0> state has a finite angular momentum given by $\hbar\sqrt{2}$, and the |S=0,m=0> state has zero angular momentum.


A little more discussion might help you feel better about these states.

First of all, no one is forcing you to work with these $|S,m>$ states as your basis (ok, maybe your teacher is forcing you, but you get what I am saying). If you prefer, you could work in a different basis, such as: $$ |1> = \vert\downarrow\downarrow\rangle $$ $$ |2> = \vert\downarrow\uparrow\rangle $$ $$ |3> = \vert\uparrow\downarrow\rangle $$ $$ |4> = \vert\uparrow\uparrow\rangle $$

Second, in a lot of problems, you are often interested in operators that commute with the total spin squared and total spin along one axis. Then, to solve the problem you usually have to diagonalize a matrix representation of the operator.

Third, if you are already working in a basis like $|S,m>$ some of the work is already done for you. So, this is why we often like to work in this basis.


As an example of how to work directly with the direct product basis, consider: $$ \hat S_z |\downarrow\uparrow\rangle = \left(s_z^{(1)}\times {I}_2 + {I}_2\times s_z^{(2)}\right)|\downarrow\uparrow\rangle = \frac{-1}{2}|\downarrow\uparrow\rangle +\frac{1}{2}|\downarrow\uparrow\rangle = 0 $$ $$ \hat S_z |\uparrow\downarrow\rangle = \left(s_z^{(1)}\times {I}_2 + {I}_2\times s_z^{(2)}\right)|\uparrow\downarrow\rangle = \frac{1}{2}|\uparrow\downarrow\rangle +\frac{-1}{2}|\uparrow\downarrow\rangle = 0 $$

$$ \hat S_x |\downarrow\uparrow\rangle = \left(s_x^{(1)}\times {I}_2 + {I}_2\times s_x^{(2)}\right)|\downarrow\uparrow\rangle = \frac{1}{2}|\uparrow\uparrow\rangle +\frac{1}{2}|\downarrow\downarrow\rangle $$ $$ \hat S_x |\uparrow\downarrow\rangle = \left(s_x^{(1)}\times {I}_2 + {I}_2\times s_x^{(2)}\right)|\uparrow\downarrow\rangle = \frac{1}{2}|\downarrow\downarrow\rangle +\frac{-1}{2}|\uparrow\uparrow\rangle $$

$$ \hat S_y |\downarrow\uparrow\rangle = \left(s_y^{(1)}\times {I}_2 + {I}_2\times s_y^{(2)}\right)|\downarrow\uparrow\rangle = \frac{-i}{2}|\uparrow\uparrow\rangle +\frac{i}{2}|\downarrow\downarrow\rangle $$ $$ \hat S_y |\uparrow\downarrow\rangle = \left(s_y^{(1)}\times {I}_2 + {I}_2\times s_y^{(2)}\right)|\uparrow\downarrow\rangle = \frac{i}{2}|\downarrow\downarrow\rangle +\frac{-i}{2}|\uparrow\uparrow\rangle $$

You can similarly find the action of $S_i$ on the other two direct product basis states: $|\uparrow \uparrow\rangle$ and $|\downarrow \downarrow\rangle$.

From here you should be able to explicitly construct: $$ \hat S^2 = \hat S_z^2 + \hat S_x^2 + \hat S_y^2 $$ as a 4x4 matrix and show its action on the two states of interest.

The result is: $$ \hat S^2 = \begin{bmatrix}2 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\0 & 1 & 1 & 0 \\0 & 1 & 1 & 0 \\0 & 0 & 0 & 2 \end{bmatrix}\;, $$ where (surprise surprise) the eigenvalues are: 2, 2, 2, 0.

The three eigenvectors with eigenvalue 2 make up the S=1 space. The one eigenvector with eigenvalue 0 is the S=0 space.

Your original question about flipping the sign should also be clearly answered via this explicit construction as well. The vector with the relative minus sign clearly has $\hat S^2 = 0$ and the vector without the relative minus sign clearly has $\hat S^2 = 2$. (Note that the eigenvalue of the operator $S^2$ is called $S(S+1)$ where $S$ is the spin.)

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  • $\begingroup$ I suppose I phrased the question badly. I understand the difference between the two states. But what I want a picture for is the following. Say I want the state S=1 and m=1. Here I know the total spin added up and so did the components. Thus the state is |up up>. Similarly for S=1 m=1. The spins add up but the components are in the opposite direction as the first case thus | down down>. Can't seem to apply this logic to the m=0 cases. Institution tells me that both should be |up down> or |down up>. How to reason my way to the normalised version of the states. $\endgroup$
    – Lost_Soul
    Commented Sep 25, 2022 at 2:55
  • $\begingroup$ @Lost_Soul what you are called "up" and "down" are the $s_z$ values of the individual single-partial states, which make up the direct product states. So $S_z = s^{(1)}_z + s_z^{(2)}$. The total $S_z$ value is zero for both $|S=1,M=0>$ and $|S=0,M=0>$ so it makes sense that these composite states would both be composed of the product states with zero z-spin. $\endgroup$
    – hft
    Commented Sep 26, 2022 at 17:12
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    $\begingroup$ I elaborated. Best thing for you to do is explicitly write out the matrices for the 4x4 direct product basis. You will see that they can be decomposed into the direct sum of a 3x3 and a 1x1 matrix with a suitable change of basis (the SM basis). You will see that the direct product basis are not eigenfunctions of $S^2$ (but they are eigenfunctions of $S_z$). A suitable linear combination of the two direct product states with $S_z=0$ can be used to construct two $S^2$ eigenstates. Surprise surprise, it is the SM basis and one of the states has $S^2=\sqrt{2}$ and one of the states has $S^2=0$. $\endgroup$
    – hft
    Commented Sep 27, 2022 at 21:06
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    $\begingroup$ Above comment should say: "one of the states has $S^2 = 2$" (not $\sqrt{2}$). $\endgroup$
    – hft
    Commented Sep 27, 2022 at 22:22
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    $\begingroup$ This may also be helpful to you: electron6.phys.utk.edu/qm1/modules/m10/twospin.htm $\endgroup$
    – hft
    Commented Sep 27, 2022 at 22:23

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