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As we know, for infinite plate of charge, we sum up the rings's 𝛿𝐸⊥. Though, It got me thinking about 2 things.

Question 1: We assume the ring can be rolled and used as a rectangle whose width is dx(the thickness of ring) and height as 2px(x is radius). x is definitely inner radius. Though, it quite won't be rectangle as if you say we got dx as thickness, then after rolling the ring, one height is x, second height is 2p(x+dx). So if you still treat it rectangle, we definitely lose some very small rectangle areas and are we sure it's so small charge won't be there ?

Question 2: from the above point to the ring's points, cone is assumed to be drawn. While I agree that from apex to each point of the outer ring's edge, they're the same height(important since if not we can't treat it as if area * E_change holds true). if they're the same height, then true, all points of rings are distanced away from P by the same value, but this assumption means that there should be multiple charges in the shell area(outer - inner). If there're more than 1 charge there, distance from it to our reference point wouldn't be the same as the distance between apex and outer edge. Hence calculation won't be fully correct, but since you bring dx there, I assume it's small, but still holds charges. if it holds multiple charges, it's bad. Any thoughts ?

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    $\begingroup$ I really do not see the point of you having a hundred of questions similar to this. Why not just compute the dayum integral and be done with the topic? There is not much to say once you perform the integration and discover that, indeed, the result is no longer a function of position. You can even set it up to be a maximally simple, one-variable integral. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 13, 2023 at 15:19
  • $\begingroup$ I am not sure what you are asking. Here is a question similar to yours that may help. How is it physically possible that the electric field of some charge distributions does not attenuate with the distance? $\endgroup$
    – mmesser314
    Commented Jun 13, 2023 at 15:21
  • $\begingroup$ Are you asking about how integrating over an area works? That requires dividing the area up into infinitesimal pieces, and some of those pieces won't have an electron in them? $\endgroup$
    – mmesser314
    Commented Jun 13, 2023 at 15:23
  • $\begingroup$ I know that the final result does not contain dependence on distance. I am not asking about this. I asked this yesterday with a different question and author of the answer preferred to ask a separate question related to this. So I hope Jacob will answer when he can. $\endgroup$
    – Giorgi
    Commented Jun 13, 2023 at 15:27

1 Answer 1

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I am only answering your first question which poses the problem of the language of the physicist when he uses the integral calculus.

Take the simplest possible example: calculate the distance traveled between instant $0$ and instant $t_0$ by an object whose speed $v(t)$ varies. In physics, we will use the following language:

Between $t$ and $t+dt$ , during the small time interval $dt$, the speed practically does not vary and the distance traveled is calculated as if the speed were constant: $dx=v(t)dt$. Then we say that the total distance traveled is the sum of the elementary distances, sum which is an integral $L=\int_{0}^{t_0}dx=\int_{0}^{t_0}v(t)dt$ ( Do not forget that the sum sign in the integral is indeed a distorted S!)

It's all very simple but quite subtle. To calculate the elementary distance, we could just as well take the speed at the end of the interval $dx=v(t+dt)dt$ or perhaps better, the speed in the middle of the interval $dx=v( t+dt/2)dt$.

In reality, even if the interval $dt$ is small, none of these formulas is "exact". Obviously the error is all the smaller as $dt$ is small but one could worry: an infinite sum of very small errors could give a finite error. If I have a tape measure that is 10% too long, I might decide to do a lot of small measurements, each with a small error but in the end the total error will be the same!

The key to the problem is that the errors are of the second order in $dt$: with our language, we should write something like $dx = v(t)dt + O(dt^2)$. The number of intervals of width $dt$ between $0$ and $t_0$ is $N=t_0/dt$ so that the total error is in $N O(dt^2)=(t_0/dt)O(dt ^2)=O(dt)$ and this total error tends to $0$ when $dt$ tends to $0$.

We have the same kind of problem when we want to calculate the area under a curve $f(x)$. In physics, we would say: the area under the small interval $dx$ is $dS=f(x)dx$, calculated as if it were a rectangle. Obviously, it's not a rectangle. But the error is second order and an infinite sum of second order errors gives a first order error which tends to $0$ when $dx$ tends to $0$. The area under the curve is therefore indeed $S=\int_ {0}^{x_0} f(x)dx$ without any approximation.

Mathematicians don't have this problem because they don't use slicing as explicitly. In mathematics class, we studied Riemann sums and proved that for an integrable function, the area is well defined in this way. But experience shows that the physicist's language is sometimes difficult to replace and it is good to know it in some detail.

Edit, to complete the answer :

Showing that the error is of the second order is precisely the job of the mathematician. This can easily be seen by assuming to illustrate that the function $f(x)$ is regular and increasing between $x$ and $x+dx$. Between the rectangle with area $dS = f(x)dx$ and the curve, we have an error. This error is less than the area of ​​a small rectangle with area $(f(x+dx)-f(x))dx$.

But the mathematics course (Mean value theorem) tells us that there exists $c$ in the interval $[x,x+dx]$ such that $f(x+dx)-f(x)=f'(c)dx$ So the error is less than $f'(c)dx^2$ which is second order.

The questions you are asking yourself are close to the philosophical questions that arose with the invention of integral calculus ("evanescent" quantities that are difficult to define). In the language of the physicist, we act as if $dx$ were finite but in the end, the limit $dx \rightarrow 0$ is still taken. So the error is zero. This is the miracle of integral calculus.

If you used numerical methods to calculate an integral, the step $dx$ would not be zero and there would remain an error in the numerical result.

Hope it can help and sorry for my poor english.

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    $\begingroup$ This is such an amazing answer. I'd love to ask you few questions if you don't mind. 1) from what reference do you say that error is in the second order ? 2) one interesting confusion that I always have is just because dx tends to 0, doesn't mean it's 0, it's still very close to 0, but not exactly 0. Hence error won't be 0, but close to 0. If so, error still should be there. so it shoudn't give us exactly 100% correct area, but 99.999999%, which doesn't mean it's 100% correct. $\endgroup$
    – Giorgi
    Commented Jun 13, 2023 at 16:21
  • $\begingroup$ By the way, (𝑡0/𝑑𝑡)𝑂(𝑑𝑡2)=𝑂(𝑑𝑡) is this correct ? shouldn't it be t0O(dt) ? but I guess, since t0 is some integer (not even close to infinity), it can be negligible $\endgroup$
    – Giorgi
    Commented Jun 13, 2023 at 16:29
  • $\begingroup$ I have added an edit to precise my answer. For the second point, since $t_0$ is a constant which do not change the order, I have not written it. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 13, 2023 at 17:09
  • $\begingroup$ Would the same imply for my 2nd question ? As in we would have no error even if f(x) is not an function ? As in ring area is 2px times dx. Integrating this rings would still give us 0 error ? Thus is important because if there is an error that means there is a place on the plane for which we didnt calculate area(small but still) and what if this small area contains a charge ? Then our overal calculation would skip this detail. This is my last question… $\endgroup$
    – Giorgi
    Commented Jun 13, 2023 at 17:16
  • $\begingroup$ I'm not sure I fully understand your second question (English is not my native language). But actually, I have the impression that it's the same problem as for the first one.There would still be a lot to say about the infinite uniformly charged plane, but that would be getting off topic. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 13, 2023 at 17:54

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