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So I've tried to wrap my head around fire. To keep it simple, I explain it with cellulose combustion. But to explain exothermic reactions, I show the example of methane combustion. Here is the detail in the bonds' energy throughout the reaction:

enter image description here

What I don't get is that the energy to break the bonds is INFERIOR to the energy needed to create new bonds! How is that possible? With the activation energy? And so the surplus of activation is dissipated as heat?

Everyone says that:

"What happens is that breaking bonds between atoms releases energy, while bonding consumes energy. In a combustion reaction the bonds being broken contains more energy than the bonds formed, which means that the extra energy is being released into the surroundings as heat."

Well, here we can clearly see that the bonds being broken contains LESS energy than the bonds formed?

Can someone enlighten me, please?

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    $\begingroup$ Bonds have negative energy. $\endgroup$
    – John Doty
    Commented Jan 28, 2023 at 1:25
  • $\begingroup$ So it would be more appropriate to rewrite the diagram with - signs for breaking bonds because it CONSUMES energy and not the other way around like the explanation i found ? And forming bonds RELEASES energy and so because it releases more energy than it took to break, it is exothermic ? And here the activation energy is 1644 + 988 ? $\endgroup$
    – Rom
    Commented Jan 28, 2023 at 1:27
  • $\begingroup$ The signs as they are refer to the energy stored in the system. By breaking O=O, and creating radicals, you're increasing the chemical energy in the system. So from that perspective, it's +. I think it's probably better to keep it + and then interpret the results with that understanding than to change it. $\endgroup$
    – Alex K
    Commented Jan 28, 2023 at 1:31
  • $\begingroup$ Yes ok I get it now thanks ! -800 kJ would be the energy that is given off by the products. But what about the conservation of energy here ? And how can it start a chain reaction if the energy given out is INFERIOR to the activation energy ? $\endgroup$
    – Rom
    Commented Jan 28, 2023 at 1:32
  • $\begingroup$ And we say that the molecules after combustion are in a lower energy state but if we compute the actual bonding energy, we find that it is more ?? Sorry it may be dumb questions but I really need to grasp the idea completely before actually understanding it.. $\endgroup$
    – Rom
    Commented Jan 28, 2023 at 1:42

3 Answers 3

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I think "bonding energy" or "energy required to create a bond" is a very unhelpful concept. Although it is useful to accurately keep track of energy balances in chemical reactions, it is not a good description of what is "really" going on.

$\rm{CH}_4$ has more energy than $\rm{CO}_2$ in the same way that a pyramid balanced upside down on its tip has more energy than a pyramid lying on a flat face. Let's say there is a thin rod bracing the pyramid while it is balanced on the tip, so it is "stable." If a marble comes in and knocks over the rod, the pyramid will fall, and the rod and marble will get knocked across the table by the energy that is released by the pyramid falling.

Or again, let's envision a mouse trap, armed and ready to spring. The spring is in an energized state, held in place by a little latch. But it can't do anything unless that latch is moved. Then if a marble falls on the trigger, the mouse trap will snap shut, and will jump up and bounce around and knock the marble across the room from the energy of the spring releasing.

Chemical reactions happen in the same way. In these macroscopic examples, the energy to kick over the pyramid support, or the energy to trigger the latch, is the activation energy of the reaction. The kinetic energy of the marbles and the mouse trap flying around (as well as the noise and heat produced) is the heat released by the reaction, and is equal to the difference in potential energy of the pyramid between the "propped up" and "laying flat" states, or the difference between the spring being tightened and relaxed. And note that the kinetic energy released is greater than the activation energy required to set it off – this is the case for an exothermic reaction.

Likewise, in a combustion reaction, the molecules become reconfigured into a lower-potential-energy state, and that difference in energy is transferred into the kinetic energy of the molecules involved, which we see macroscopically as a rise in temperature and heat emission. I should say "molecules and photons involved" because some of the energy can be released directly as light.

There is no "bond that is formed" in the sense that it eats up energy to bond a $\rm{C}$ atom to an $\rm{H}$ atom. Rather, the two atoms become trapped together by the electric attraction between them – just like the Earth and Moon are "bound together" by gravity – and do not have enough energy to move apart. It requires an energy input to move them apart. This "hypothetical" or potential energy* that is not present, but would be needed in order to separate them, is referred to as the bonding energy.

*Note: I probably shouldn't call this "potential energy" in this case, since it is not – not in the sense that the pre-loaded mousetrap spring has potential energy. This energy is the difference between the energy the molecules have when they are bound vs. when they are free.

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  • $\begingroup$ Well first of all thank yoou for your answer ! The mouse-trap analogy makes more sense ! So we can say that wood is like a mouse-trap ready to be triggered but you need that actual imput to make it change its state and the wiggle of the trap is the energy that is released as heat and photons. But to have a chain reaction, you need that the wiggle of the mouse-trap to trigger another mouse-trap and so on. And if we compute the energy in the wiggle, we see that it is inferiour to the actual need of pressing the trap, so why do we have a chain reaction ? $\endgroup$
    – Rom
    Commented Jan 28, 2023 at 2:36
  • $\begingroup$ A piece of wood or other fuel is like having a whole basketball court lined with rows and rows of mousetraps. Once you disturb one (provide activation energy) the energy of them snapping shut will disturb and trigger the rest, and they will trigger like dominoes, until all the traps (fuel molecules) are used up, or are too far apart to sustain a reaction. $\endgroup$
    – RC_23
    Commented Jan 28, 2023 at 2:43
  • $\begingroup$ youtu.be/9e8E0T8hfco $\endgroup$
    – RC_23
    Commented Jan 28, 2023 at 2:47
  • $\begingroup$ Yes but isn't that triggered by the heat generated from the combustion itself ? And we see that the combustion energy is inferior to the activation energy no ? $\endgroup$
    – Rom
    Commented Jan 28, 2023 at 3:05
  • $\begingroup$ we can find that on internet that "Also, energy is given off in a larger volume than what is needed to start the combustion process.". How do we prove that ? $\endgroup$
    – Rom
    Commented Jan 28, 2023 at 3:28
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Its a very poorly worded explanation/perspective ... you were unfortunate to find it. When a stick of dynamite goes off all scientists would say energy is released. The creation of stronger bonds releases tremendous EM energy in terms of photons and molecular vibrations ... i.e hot gases that expand rapidly and IR photons that spread heat. Closely within the explosion strong photons (UV , strong UV, extreme UV) rip apart molecules and a chain reaction is unstoppable.

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  • $\begingroup$ where/what subject can i find details on the photon generation behind the "heat" generation activity from combustion? this seems to be discussed in detail for nuclear decay but the chemistry of CH4+O2 stops at "H2O+CO2+890.4kJ". thanks! $\endgroup$
    – jamesgate
    Commented Feb 15 at 17:02
  • $\begingroup$ @jamesgate. Google “ spectrum of fire”. That will be a good start. Nuclear means the nucleus of the atom is involved but chemical just means the electrons of the atoms are involved. $\endgroup$ Commented Feb 15 at 20:57
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For an exothermic reaction the total internal energy of the reactants is greater than the total internal energy of the products; the decrease in internal energy appears as increased kinetic energy of the products, sometimes called the energy released.

This is true for both chemical and nuclear reactions. Thanks to Einstein, the internal energy can be expressed as $E = mc^2$ so for an exothermic reaction (rest) mass, $m$, is converted to kinetic energy. For an exothermic chemical reaction the energy released per reaction is very small compared to a nuclear reaction. For example, nuclear fission releases about 200 Mev per reaction, while an exothermic chemical reaction typically releases a few tens of eVs per reaction.

Classical thermodynamics (before Einstein) considers the change in internal energy for a chemical reaction as the "energy of formation" or the "enthalpy of formation". See one of the thermodynamics textbooks by Sonntag and Van Wylen.

In an exothermic reaction mass is converted to kinetic energy. In an endothermic reaction kinetic energy is converted to mass.

Look up the Q value of a nuclear reaction on the web for more information.

Sometimes in an exothermic reaction (chemical or nuclear) the kinetic energy of the products must be significantly greater than zero; for example, nuclear fusion where the Coulombic repulsion of positively charged interacting nuclei must be overcome for the nuclei to have a nuclear fusion reaction. Similarly, in combustion, energy (heat) must be added. (For fission from a neutral neutron, the reaction can be achieved with a low kinetic energy neutron.)

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