1
$\begingroup$

The picture below shows a particle $A$ linked to a disk through a massless rod. The rod can freely turn, with no friction, around a fixed axis that goes through the center of the disk. The system is initially at rest and starts moving because of the torque caused by the rod-particle. The moment of inertia of the disk is $0.5 \, M \, R^2$; the mass of the particle is $m$; the length of the rod is $L$.

disk_rod_particle

I want to compute the speed $v_A$ when the rod is at vertical position.

I know this problem is pretty standard, and it is solved using conservation of energy of the whole system. Let me skip the details: $m g L = 0.5 \, (0.5 \, M \, R^2 + m L^2) \, \omega^2 \implies \omega = \sqrt{\frac{2mgL}{0.5 \, M \, R^2 + m L^2}}$ and therefore $v_A = \omega L = \sqrt{\frac{2mgL^3}{0.5 \, M \, R^2 + m L^2}}$

On the other hand, I feel that the energy of $A$ should also be conserved on its own, because the only non-conservative force acting on it, is perpendicular to the particle's trajectory. In this case, again skipping the details this yields $m g L = 0.5 \, m \, v_A^2$ so $v_A=\sqrt{2gL}$.

Clearly these answers are related, the first one becoming the second one as $R \rightarrow 0$. Based on what I have seen, I would take the first answer being the right one. In other words, the energy of the particle alone is not conserved, but why? What non-conservative force acting on $A$ is doing work here?

$\endgroup$
3
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ Based on the statement that the pivot point for the rod is frictionless and goes through the center of the disk, no torque can be applied to the disk. This means that the mathematics of the derivation violates the problem statement. $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 30, 2023 at 14:51
  • $\begingroup$ You are right, I made a mistake in my drawing: the rod should be attached to the outer edge of the disc, not the central axis. I believe the answer provided by @gandalf61 still applies, though. Thanks for pointing out. $\endgroup$
    – Javi
    Commented Oct 30, 2023 at 16:18
  • $\begingroup$ Voting to reopen - this is a conceptual question (and a good one too), not a check-my-work question. $\endgroup$
    – gandalf61
    Commented Oct 30, 2023 at 18:05

1 Answer 1

5
$\begingroup$

the only non-conservative force acting on it, is perpendicular to the particle's trajectory

This is where your reasoning is incorrect. Since the particle exerts a torque on the disc, the disc must exert an equal and opposite torque on the particle. Therefore there must be a force exerted by the rod on the particle that is not along the line joining the centre of the disc and the particle. In practice the rod will bend slightly so that the tension force it exerts on the particle is not quite perpendicular to the particle's path.

You can also see that this must be true by replacing the rod by a string. The string cannot exert a sideways force on the particle, and equally it cannot exert a torque on the disc. The disc does not rotate, the particle is not slowed down, and the particle's velocity at the bottom of its arc is now $\sqrt{2gL}$.

$\endgroup$
2
  • $\begingroup$ ok, just to be sure I got this right: the opposite torque you mention should correspond to a force acting upwards on the particle. This force does negative work so the particle is losing mechanical energy (the rod also exerts a centripetal force on the particle but this one does no work.) Right? $\endgroup$
    – Javi
    Commented Oct 30, 2023 at 16:43
  • 2
    $\begingroup$ @Javi Yes, that is correct. $\endgroup$
    – gandalf61
    Commented Oct 30, 2023 at 18:03

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service and acknowledge you have read our privacy policy.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.