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Assume we have a large disc at rest (bottom disc), which is free to move. Above it there is another disc (disc2) that's rotating, and a motor fixed on that large disc (bottom disc) as well, that load is on a disc rotating in the opposite direction than disc2, which is above the bottom disc. See the diagrammed here:

enter image description here

Assuming that the $\tau$ the motor applies on disc-1 to disc-2 is equal and opposite to disc-2. When the two disc's cancel out and both would be at rest, will their reaction forces transmit to the bottom disc in a way that maintains the bottom disc at rest, or is there any motion gained by the bottom disc due to the reaction forces?

Top view just in case:

enter image description here

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  • $\begingroup$ If I've got your question right, they would not move the bottom disc. Both upper discs would put a force on the bottom disc, but both forces would be equally strong but opposite in direction, and therefore cancel each other out. $\endgroup$ Commented Mar 27, 2015 at 18:42
  • $\begingroup$ Yes, and their reaction forces acting on the bottom disc is also canceled? Due to it being opposite. $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Mar 28, 2015 at 18:49
  • $\begingroup$ Yeah. The two forces the upper disc would put on the lower disc are two rotating forces, one clockwise, the other counterclockwise. They both have the same amount of force (or however you say that, sorry for my English) turning on the joints. Thus they cancel each other out and the big disc won't move at all. As long as your engine isn't incredible strong, nothing will happen. Except for your engine which will get hot and eventually break ;) $\endgroup$ Commented Mar 28, 2015 at 18:52
  • $\begingroup$ Am I right in assuming that there is some torque that the bottom disk is applying onto disk 2 to drive the disk into motion, like a second motor? Or is it the case that disk 2 is sped up to a particular speed, and then disk 1 is introduced into the system? $\endgroup$
    – Involute
    Commented Mar 29, 2015 at 0:51
  • $\begingroup$ @KnowledgeisFdotv I believe you have to think of the two upper disks more as gear wheels rather then discs. The system itself interlocks. The motor wants to turn the base disc in one direction and the disc 2 into the other. $\endgroup$ Commented Mar 29, 2015 at 0:57

1 Answer 1

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No, the baseplate will not move if the two motors are applying torques in such a way that the rotors remain at rest.

To analyse this problem, it is best to consider the forces on the three parts (base disk and two rotors) individually, using free body diagrams. There are two motors, each connecting a rotor to the base plate, and the effect that each motor has is that each motor applies a torque of magnitude $\tau$ and (arbitrary) direction of clockwise. It it important to note that both motors need to apply torques in the same direction if you want the wheels to the remain at rest.

Note that because the motor applies a torque ($\tau$ clockwise) on the rotor, by extension of Newton's 3rd Law to moments, the rotor will apply an equal and opposite torque ($\tau$ anticlockwise) on the motor. As the motor is fixed to the base plate, this means torques (both $\tau$ anticlockwise) are applied to the base plate.

enter image description here enter image description here

The rotors will attempt to rotate clockwise, but will be unable to due to the contact forces each rotor exerts on the other rotor (this assumes that the rotors act like gear wheels, and that no slipping occurs between the two rotors.) So, rotor 1 exerts a contact force on rotor 2 (magnitude R, direction "down" in the diagram shown). By Newton's 3rd Law, rotor 2 must exert a contacts force on rotor 1 (magnitude R, direction "up"). Finally, there may be a force that the baseplate applies to the centre of the rotor (and vice versa, 3rd Law), but we need more information before we know which direction that force is in.

So, how strong is this contact force? How big is R? Well, first of all, let's make an assumption: let's assume that the rotors are at equilibrium (i.e. it will remain at rest). If the calculations do not have any contradictions, and if the base plate turns out to also being in equilibrium, then this assumption will turn out to be correct.

So, if we treat each rotor as it being at equilibrium, we can analyse it using static methods. For a rigid body to be in equilibrium, two things must be true:

1) The net force acting on the body must be zero. 2) The net moment (of force) acting on the body must be zero about any point.

We can use fact 2) to determine to value of R: For either rotor, add up the moments about the point in the centre of the rotor (note there is a force that the baseplate applies to the centre of the rotor. If we analyse moments about that point, we don't need to worry about that force in this step, because the perpendicular distance to that force is zero). Let $r$ be the radius of each rotor:

Sum of moments about centre of rotor: $$\tau - rR = 0$$ $$\therefore R = \tau / r$$

Good. Now, we have to deal with the force that the baseplate applies to the centre of the rotor. In order to satisfy rule 1) for each rotor, that force will need to be equal and opposite to the contact force. So, now we know the magnitude and direction of all the forces and torques applied to either rotor (see the diagram above).

Now, we need to see if the base plate obeys both conditions for equilibrium. From earlier, I said that each rotor applies a torque of magnitude $\tau$ and direction anticlockwise. Also, because the baseplate applied a force to each rotor, by 3rd Law, each rotor will apply an equal and opposite force to the baseplate. Therefore, we can see all the external forces and torques applied to the baseplate, shown in the diagram above.

We can immediately see that rule 1) is met, as the only two forces acting on the baseplate are indeed equal and opposite. How about rule 2)? To do so, let's add up moments about, say, the middle of the baseplate. Note the distance between the two points the rotor connect to on the baseplate is $2r$.

$$-\tau - \tau + R(2r)$$

Sub in the value for R:

$$-\tau - \tau + \tau/r \times (2r) = 0$$

Therefore, rule 2) is met. This means the baseplate is also in equilibrium. This mean that if the whole system is at rest, it will remain at rest even if the two rotors are running in the same direction. The baseplate will not move.

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  • $\begingroup$ Well explained, I agree of the same earlier. No longer have any doubts. $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Mar 29, 2015 at 18:39
  • $\begingroup$ One thing I noticed though, lets assume the torques of both rotors are not equal, lets say that R1's torque is > than R2 the motor would have reaction torque applied on the bottom disc, but assuming that the motor is (fixed) to the bottom disc, there shouldn't be any form of motion or general torque, because its like having a small rotating cup on-top of a large round table(assuming no friction), the round table should not move even though that cup is rotating on-top of it. I was thinking about this while looking at my coffee table, and water cup. $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Mar 29, 2015 at 20:05
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    $\begingroup$ The issue that arises when the motor torques are not equal is that I don't believe it is possible to keep the rotors static anymore. Note that the reaction forces at the point of contact of the two rotors must be equal (3rd Law). However, by equilibrium equation, taking moments about the centre of each rotor yields: reaction force = motor torque * rotor radius. Reaction force and rotor radius must be constant, which contradicts the differing motor torques. Therefore equilibrium of the rotor is not possible, so you can't keep the rotors at rest. $\endgroup$
    – Involute
    Commented Mar 29, 2015 at 20:11

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