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Combining the first and second law of thermodynamics we can get the following equation

$$TdS=dU-P_{ext}dV$$

First question: Is this equation applicable for irreversible processes such that that $dS≠\dfrac{dQ}{T}$?

Second question:If the system temperature $T_{sys}$ is smaller than the surrounding temperature $T_{sur}$, which temperature should we put in the equation?

I have this question because sometimes people use $T_{sur}$ instead of $T_{sys}$ (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsoD3oZAAXI&list=WL, 19:45) but the equation is supposed to describe changes in the system.

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    $\begingroup$ It think it's applicable in any processes because it's a total derivative equation. The temperature in the equation is the temperature of the system considered (the system which has the entropy, the intial energy, the volume and is acted by $P_{ext}$ $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 3:15
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    $\begingroup$ I think sometimes they use $T_{sur}$ instead of $T_{sys}$ because the system at that moment doesn't have any fine-defined temperature. The process is not equilibrium. Therefore they may have considered another process, which has the same initial state and final state, but is equilibrium, so that the system can have the well-defined temperature $T=T_{sur}$ $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 3:19
  • $\begingroup$ The youtube link is still broken (it contains the ellipsis "..." literally) - add the title when you link the video,, like [title](example.com) - that redundancy would allow us to fix the link. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 3:22
  • $\begingroup$ The link should be youtube.com/watch?v=jsoD3oZAAXI&list=WL $\endgroup$
    – Kelvin S
    Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 6:00
  • $\begingroup$ It is MIT course Lec 12 | MIT 5.60 Thermodynamics & Kinetics, Spring 2008 $\endgroup$
    – Kelvin S
    Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 6:03

3 Answers 3

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First question: Is this equation applicable for irreversible processes?

From the first law, we have: $$ \mathrm{d} U = \mathrm{d}Q + \mathrm{d}W $$ where $\mathrm{d} U$ is an exact differential, and $\mathrm{d}Q$ and $\mathrm{d}W$ are inexact differentials. It is thus remarkable to see that the sum of of two inexact differentials makes an exact differential! This suggests that it might be possible to turn the inexact differentials into exact differentials.

Indeed, for an hydrostatic system we can write: $$ \mathrm{d} W = - p \mathrm{d} V $$ Furthermore, for a reversible process: $$ \mathrm{d}Q = T \mathrm{d} S $$ Thus, for a reversible process we obtain the following expression for the first law: $$ \mathrm{d} U = T \mathrm{d} S - p \mathrm{d} V $$ Again, note that the above equation has been derived only for reversible processes. However, since $\mathrm{d} S$ and $\mathrm{d} V $ are exact differentials, and thus they are path-independent, the above equation is also valid for irreversible processes! Thus, if $\mathrm{d}Q < T \mathrm{d}S$, then this get compensated by the fact that $\mathrm{d} W$ is larger than for the reversible case.

Second question:If the system temperature $T_{sys}$ is smaller than the surrounding temperature $T_{sur}$, which temperature should we put in the equation?

Remember that heat flows from "warm" to "cold", thus $T$ denotes the temperature of the object which rejects the heat $\mathrm{d} Q$. This means that $T$ does not necessarily denote the temperature of the system. This is consistent with the well known result: \begin{equation} \oint \frac{\mathrm{d} Q}{T} \leq 0 \end{equation}

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  • $\begingroup$ you answer is very useful. I'm just wondering if dW is smaller in irreversible process than in reversible process, we cannot say dW=−pdV, but if we indicate P is Pext (assume constant external pressure for simplicity) we can put dW=−PextdV and it becomes exact differential. In fact I posted this question because in a video lecture (youtube.com/watch?v=jsoD3oZAAXI&list=WL, 19:45) the lecturer obvious put TdS>dU+PdV for irreversible process and specially indicate T is Tsur. I guess he is doing something like putting Pext in dW=−pdV. Is it correct? $\endgroup$
    – Kelvin S
    Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 14:56
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    $\begingroup$ @KelvinS you are right, thanks for the careful read. Indeed, $\mathrm{d} W$ is larger (instead of smaller) than for the reversible case; I've edited my answer accordingly. $\endgroup$
    – Hunter
    Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 15:01
  • $\begingroup$ As for your second question; I don't know. I don't have the time to go through an entire youtube lecture, so I'm not sure why the lecturer writes $T \mathrm{d} S > \mathrm{d} U + P \mathrm{d} V$. I'm pretty sure this is wrong, but perhaps he has a good reason for writing that. $\endgroup$
    – Hunter
    Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 15:05
  • $\begingroup$ Another thought is, let's say we agree that TdS=dU+PdV is a state equation and describe both reversible and irreversible processes. If we forget this equation temporarily and just consider dQ=dU+PdV and TdS≥dQ as two simple math equations and put them together, we actually get TdS≥dU+PdV. Does it possibly have some physical significance, or is just a meaningless mathematical trick? $\endgroup$
    – Kelvin S
    Commented Jul 10, 2014 at 14:28
  • $\begingroup$ Strictly speaking $T \mathrm{d} S \geq \mathrm{d} U + p \mathrm{d} V$ is true, but, as I have shown above, the equality sign holds: $$T \mathrm{d} S = \mathrm{d} U + p \mathrm{d} V$$ so what you have written is meaningless. $\endgroup$
    – Hunter
    Commented Jul 10, 2014 at 14:56
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Combining the first and second law of thermodynamics we can get the following equation

$$TdS=dU-P_{ext}dV$$

There is little reason to use $P_{ext}$ here. Also the sign is wrong. The correct way to write the differential relation between entropy, energy and volume is $$ TdS = dU + PdV $$ where $T, P$ are temperature and pressure of the system and $S,U,V$ are its entropy, energy and volume. External temperature and pressure appear when deriving the rule "in spontaneous process, free energy decreases", which is a different matter.

First question: Is this equation applicable for irreversible processes such that that $dS≠\dfrac{dQ}{T}$?

Yes, if the irreversible process is such that the whole system is close enough to equilibrium state so that it has one temperature and one pressure. This happens for very slow irreversible process, for example very slow heat transfer by conduction.

Second question:If the system temperature $T_{sys}$ is smaller than the surrounding temperature $T_{sur}$, which temperature should we put in the equation? I have this question because sometimes people use $T_{sur}$ instead of $T_{sys}$ (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsoD3oZAAXI&list=WL, 19:45) but the equation is supposed to describe changes in the system.

$T_{sys}$. Again, the above equation has nothing to do with inequalities derived for spontaneous processes. Only in those, the temperature is that of the heat reservoir:

$$ dS \geq \frac{dQ}{T_{res}}. $$

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    $\begingroup$ Just to add, the equation can only be applied to very slow, quasi-static processes, however all the quantities that appear in it are functions of state, i.e. they are determined by the state of the system at that moment in time and do not depend on how it got there. This means you can calculate the change along any path and it will give you the same answer, so you can do the internal along a quasi-static path, where pressure, temperature, etc are always defined, regardless of the path the system actually took. So in that sense the equation is always applicable. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 12:27
  • $\begingroup$ @By Symmetry : In some process that is very irreversible, TdS>dQ , should we write TdS>dU+PdV instead of TdS=dU+PdV? The equation is a combination of dQ=dU+PdV and TdS≥dQ , so I guess the equation is different for reversible and irreversible process. $\endgroup$
    – Kelvin S
    Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 14:02
  • $\begingroup$ @Ján Lalinský : Thanks for your answer. But in the video youtube.com/watch?v=jsoD3oZAAXI&list=WL, the lecturer purposely use Tsur, how to justify this? $\endgroup$
    – Kelvin S
    Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 14:04
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    $\begingroup$ @Kelivin S No $T\mathrm{d}S = \mathrm{d}U +p\mathrm{d}V$ is the correct equation. $\mathrm{d}Q$ is not a function of state, and so it is normally desirable to eliminate it. see Hunter's answer $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 16:00
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    $\begingroup$ @Kelvin S, the lecturer uses the formula $dS \geq \frac{dQ}{T_{res}}$ which follows from the Clausius inequality. This is for different process, in which the system may go through states that are very far from equilibrium. Then temperature $T$ of the system may not exist. The temperature of the reservoir (surroundings) $T_{res}$ is to be put in the inequality. $\endgroup$ Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 16:36
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In the video lecture mentioned in the question, the guy always use $T_{sur}$ in the inequality TdS>dU+PdV.

In deriving the equation the "surrounding" (also see "The Principles of Chemical Equilibrium" by Denbigh, p.82, the term "thermostat" is used instead) is included as a bigger isolated system. Let's say the entropy of these bigger system is Si. Therefore $dS_{i}≥0$, it can be replaced by dS+dSsur≥0 where S is the entropy of the "inner" system and $S_{sur}$ is the entropy of the "surrounding". As heat is transferred the surrounding loses entropy so it becomes dS-dQ/Tsur≥0 and therefore $T_{sur}dS≥dU+PdV$.

In the case that there is no chemical reaction, TdS=dU+PdV is always true as state equation. The T here refers to the "inner" system's temperature. There is no contradiction.

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