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In Special Relativity when I move backwards and forwards my hypersurface of simultaneity moves too.

Does time really oscillate backwards and forwards as I move around? Or is it just the application of coordinates? Is it just a matter of perspective. No physical change?

Some pop books I've seen say time does actually move around crazily. But I didn't think time could move backwards, but this seems to say if I walk around with you, you move back in time...

But surely physical processes don't reverse when I move.

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    $\begingroup$ Not seeing the reason for the down votes. This is an entirely reasonable conceptual question. He isn't claiming time moves crazily. It seems that SR would lead there. He wants to know how it is that it doesn't. $\endgroup$
    – mmesser314
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 3:24
  • $\begingroup$ Since both this and the linked duplicate are closed, it doesn't look like we will be getting any more answers. I am not sure that it is right to close under these circumstances. $\endgroup$
    – mmesser314
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 3:27
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    $\begingroup$ You might also find this helpful - Understanding the difference between timelike and spacelike separations $\endgroup$
    – mmesser314
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 4:01
  • $\begingroup$ One of the reasons that the system specifically gives for downvoting is that a question does not show that the OP shows a lack of research. Since this question was already asked and answered earlier this week, the lack of research was clear to me. $\endgroup$
    – Dale
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 6:04
  • $\begingroup$ I did see your answer, but I just wanted to see if it was the view of the many... Seems most people here agree with you $\endgroup$
    – Danny55
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 7:29

5 Answers 5

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Nothing happens. The hyperplane perpendicular to your worldline does not figure into the laws of nature in any way. It's an invention of human beings who have trouble thinking fourth-dimensionally. It's not even a "plane of simultaneity" in anything but name.

It has no bearing on presentism vs eternalism in philosophy. The belief that it does is just another facet of the same cognitive error. The meaning of coordinate independence is that you can use any coordinate system, not that you must use every coordinate system. If you want to simulate a universe, you can pick the coordinates you want to do it in. If you want to save RAM by throwing away earlier time steps after computing the next one (which makes your simulated universe "presentist"), you can do that. If a simulated person in that universe is moving relative to the coordinates you chose, you will still correctly simulate all of their experiences. It doesn't matter that their "plane of simultaneity" is partly in the future of your simulation and partly in the past, because their "plane of simultaneity" has no relevance to any physical law. You can just ignore it. It's meaningless.

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  • $\begingroup$ So, what if eternalism is true. Are hypersurfaces still meaningless? $\endgroup$
    – Danny55
    Commented Mar 21, 2023 at 9:42
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    $\begingroup$ @Danny55 The hypersurfaces are usually used to argue for eternalism, so I made a counterargument for presentism in the answer, but yes, if eternalism is true then the hypersurfaces still aren't relevant to the physical laws, so they're still meaningless. $\endgroup$
    – benrg
    Commented Mar 21, 2023 at 16:58
  • $\begingroup$ Ah amazing thank you, I guess there are other arguments for eternalism apart from hypersurfaces $\endgroup$
    – Danny55
    Commented Mar 21, 2023 at 17:14
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No combination of Lorentz boosts exists which reverses any part of the order of any process. Only unrelated events (for which distance $s \gt c\Delta t$ as measured in any frame) may have their apparent order reversed.

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  • $\begingroup$ But is anything physically going backwards can we reverse causality $\endgroup$
    – Danny55
    Commented Mar 19, 2023 at 23:04
  • $\begingroup$ @Danny55 no and no, nor does anything appear to go backwards no matter how you move, accelerate, etc. Once you observe an event, you can't get it back. $\endgroup$
    – g s
    Commented Mar 19, 2023 at 23:31
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It depends on your stance on the philosophical question of Presentism versus Eternalism.

'Presentism' is the philosophical position that only the present exists, and the past and future don't. The past existed but no longer exists. The future does not yet exist, but will.

'Eternalism' is the philosophical position that all times, past, present, and future, are real and continually exist. The future is 'already there', laid out ahead of us. The past still exists. All time is laid out in an unchanging, 4-dimensional 'block universe'.

Special relativity poses serious problems for Presentism. If the existing 'now' is the plane of simultaneity of a given observer, then yes, existence does appear to 'wiggle' and oscillate backwards and forwards as the observer moves around. (There are alternatives to the observer's plane of simultaneity we could pick, but they all have similar problems.)

If you take the position of Eternalism, this isn't so much of a problem. Your 'now' moves around back and forth in time, but it entails no physical changes. Past and future are always there, and 'now' is just a choice of coordinate system - an entirely imaginary construct slicing through a 4-dimensional block.

Eternalism means the future is fixed and free will is an illusion (arguably), so lots of people want to dispute it for other reasons. And a lot of people have Presentist intuitions about time, so it provides that 'mindblowing' impact in pop science presentations to get the public interested. But if you find the Eternalist perspective natural (as most physicists do after working with relativity for a while), then it seems almost trivial and obvious.

The question gets interesting again when we think about issues of wavefunction collapse in quantum physics, which takes a somewhat Presentist stance. The future is undecided and undetermined until the moment of observation, the branching future is open while the past is not, and the influence of a collapse supposedly propagates 'instantaneously', faster than light. It's not actually entirely straightforward, even from the perspective of modern physics. But that's a separate question well-covered elsewhere.

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  • $\begingroup$ Isn't there another philosophical position that claims that none of them (past, present, or future) actually exist? That they are all just particular components of time (a mere coordinate in relativity, a human invention with no physical manifestation), $\endgroup$
    – D. Halsey
    Commented Mar 20, 2023 at 1:14
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    $\begingroup$ 'If the existing 'now' is the plane of simultaneity of the observer...' but surely the point is that the existing now isn't the plane of simultaneity. Moreover, existence doesn't wiggle backwards and forwards except in terms of the coordinates with which you label it. $\endgroup$ Commented Mar 21, 2023 at 14:21
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If you consider the Universe to be everywhere, now, then yes: your definition of now changes. Details are known as the Rietdijk-Putnam Argument (aka: The Andromeda Paradox), of which David Mermin concludes:

"That no inherent meaning can be assigned to the simultaneity of distant events is the single most important lesson to be learned from relativity."

-David Mermin, It's About Time

If you draw a Minkowski diagram and move the origin around and select the various $x'$ coordinates, you'll see that every point in the light-cone defines a different "now" for every boost...which is philosophically challenging.

Meanwhile, any frames that share the same now are space-like separated.

In the Twin Paradox, both twins see the other's clock running slower, at all times, by $\gamma$. Thus Earth twin experiences $T$, and sees $T/\gamma$ pass for the space twin. Thus, space twin sees $T/\gamma^2$ pass on Earth.

Where does the missing $(T-T/\gamma^2) = \beta^2T$ go?

Well "now on Earth" jumps forward by $\beta^2 T$ for the space-twin when he switches direction. It doesn't pass or get dilated, rather, the clock bias changes.

You are correct that it is a coordinate thing, nothing physical happens, but when space-twin returns: $T$ has passed for the Earth twin.

See David Mermin's quote for explanation.

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  • $\begingroup$ So, if I run towards you, let's say real fast I've been on the treadmill learning to run at 0.5c. So I run towards you at 0.5c you don't physically jump into the future $\endgroup$
    – Danny55
    Commented Mar 19, 2023 at 22:02
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    $\begingroup$ No, you're outside my light cone. Nothing you do can affect my present. Moreover, you don't need to exist for said reference frame to exists, and the existence of other reference frames doesn't affect me. For instance, right now in the reference frame of a downward UHECR ($\gamma \approx 10^9$), you're around 2 nanometers tall (assuming you're standing). Does it make you 2 nm tall? $\endgroup$
    – JEB
    Commented Mar 19, 2023 at 22:06
  • $\begingroup$ So, it's really just a perspectivial thing? Like your reference frame exists regardless of what i do? No one / nothing 'experiences' the jumps in time. So, since here on Earth we all have basically the same sense of now this changing of reference frames locally doesn't mean anything for people around me. Like, my reference frame changing doesn't mean you physically move back and forth. You are where you are from your reference frame? Does 'now' really mean anything? $\endgroup$
    – Danny55
    Commented Mar 19, 2023 at 22:29
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Benrg's 'Nothing happens' is exactly right. One bit of advice I would like to share is that whenever you are contemplating the meaning of SR, bear in mind that effects such as time dilation, length contraction and so on are all reciprocated, so if I am time dilated in your frame, you are time dilated in mine, and so on.

Now let's return to your specific question. Suppose it were true that when you walk down the street, time on Andromeda shifts forward a week. Then consider the reverse. Suppose there is a person on Andromeda who starts walking down the street- does time on Earth shift forward a week? More importantly, suppose there are n people on Andromeda who each start walking down streets at different speeds and directions- how can the time on Earth shift by n different amounts at once?

And as for 'what if eternalism is true?', by asking that question you are effectively ignoring what you have been told. It is like asking whether gold or hydrogen is more dense, and then asking 'but what if hydrogen is more dense' having been told that gold is. In any case, suppose eternalism were true (whatever that means), I still do not move backwards and forwards in time by n different amounts when n people walk at different speeds on Andromeda.

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