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I am primarily looking for the difference in definitions to see how they differ. Given a Lagrangian $L(q_{j}, \dot{q}_{j}, t)$ of a system of finitely many particles, we may define (using Einstein summation convention) the Lagrangian energy function $$ h(q, \dot{q}, t) = \dot{q}_{j}\frac{\partial L(q, \dot{q}, t)}{\partial \dot{q}_{j}} - L(q, \dot{q}, t), $$ which is conserved whenever $\frac{\partial L}{\partial t} = 0$. Now there are cases where this doesn't coincide with the "normal notion of energy." The problem is, if we're not talking about the Lagrangian energy function, what do we mean by the "normal notion of energy" to begin with?

I have seen the following PSE pages:

Three really good examples are Ján Lalinský's post, Dan's post, and Siyuan Ren's post. However, none of these posts provide a clear definition of energy.

I thought energy was the Noether charge associated with time-translations, but under that definition, energy would have to be the Lagrangian energy function, and the answers insist this is not the case. So then what would be the definition of energy in these contexts?

Some comments (in response to the exact same question) said we can say energy is $T + V$ instead of being the Noether charge, but then we'd have to define $T$, $V$, and then we'd be back to needing to define energy, which we haven't done.

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4 Answers 4

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  1. [Under appropriate identifications from the Legendre transformation between $\dot{q}$ and $p$] the Lagrangian energy function $h(q,\dot{q},t)$ has the same value as the Hamiltonian $H(q,p,t)$ [although they are different functions], so that OP's question is essentially a duplicate of When is the Hamiltonian of a system not equal to its total energy?

  2. The total energy is typically the mechanical energy $T+V$ in some reference frame. This may differ from the Lagrangian energy function $h$ for various reasons, e.g. different choices of dynamical variables, and/or reference frame.

  3. For explicit examples see e.g. my Phys.SE answers here & here.

References:

  1. H. Goldstein, Classical Mechanics, 2nd + 3rd eds.; eqs. (2.53)+(2.57)+(2.58) p.62.
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I am primarily looking for the difference in definitions to see how they differ. (Emphasis in original).

The kinetic energy $T$ is defined as: $$ T = \sum_{i=1}^N \frac{1}{2}m_i \vec v_i^2 $$ $$ = \sum_{i=1}^N \frac{1}{2}m_i\left(\dot x_i^2 + \dot y_i^2 +\dot z_i^2\right)\;,\tag{1} $$ where $x$, $y$, and $z$ are a fixed set of rectangular/cartesian coordinate axes (as you might expect), not generalized coordinates.

For a conservative force field $\vec F(\vec x)$, the single-partial potential energy $U$ is usually defined (up to a constant) via: $$ \vec F =-\vec \nabla U\;. $$

By analogy, I define $V = V(\vec q_1, \vec q_2,\ldots)$ via the force on particle i: $$ \vec F^{(i)} = -\vec \nabla_i V\;. $$ For example, if the system of particles is non-interacting, other than via a single-particle potential $U$, then we can write $V = \sum_i U(\vec x_i)$. (Note that even $V=V(q_1,q_2,\ldots)$ is not exactly the most general form of potential, but this is explained further in an addendum.)

The "total mechanical energy" $E_{TM}$ is defined as: $$ E_{TM} = T + V\;, $$ but be careful, because this thing I'm calling "$E_{TM}$" might also be called the "mechanical energy" or the "total energy" or the "energy." I'm hanging a couple subscripts off of my $E$ symbol to indicate exactly what I mean, but no one else will ever do that.

The "Lagrangian energy function," as you have called it, is defined properly as you have defined it in terms of generalized coordinates as: $$ h = \sum_{i=1}^{3N}\dot q_i\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot q_i} - L\;, $$ but be careful, because someone might also call this the "mechanical energy" or the "total energy" or the "energy."

And, of course, L is defined as: $$ L = T - V\;. $$

Now, you have the proper definitions, you should be able to figure out for yourself when the "Lagrangian energy function" is equal to the "total mechanical energy."

For some further assistance, see my answer here, and see below, and perhaps consult a graduate textbook on Classical Mechanics, for example, the textbook by Whittaker (some of which is rewritten below).


Addendum:

You might be interested to know that the Lagrangian equations of motion in the form: $$ \frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot q_i} - \frac{\partial L}{\partial q_i} = 0\;, $$ is not the most general form.

Supposing that the force can not be written as the gradient of a potential, we can still write a form of the Lagrange equations of motion as: $$ \frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial T}{\partial \dot q_i} - \frac{\partial T}{\partial q_i} = Q_i\;, $$ where the $Q_i$ is a generalized force, which is defined via the work done as the generalized coordinate $q_i$ changes by an infinitesimal amount: $dW_i = Q_i(q_1,q_2,\ldots) dq_i$ (no sum on i implied).

In the case where we can define a potential energy function $$ V(q_1, q_2, \ldots)\;, $$ then we can write: $$ \frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial T}{\partial \dot q_i} - \frac{\partial T}{\partial q_i} = -\frac{\partial V}{\partial q_i}\;, $$ and then we can recover the other form of the equations of motion.


Addendum 2

So, when are the "total mechanical energy" ($E_{TM}$) and the "Lagrangian energy function" ($h$) equal?

To answer this we should consider a slight generalization of the potential energy $V$. But at first, a let's consider a potential that only depends on the $q_i$.

Previously, I indicated that if we can find a potential $V$ such that: $$ -\frac{\partial V}{\partial q_i} = Q_i\;, $$ then we recover the usual Lagrangian equations of motion: $$ \frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial L}{\partial \dot q_i} - \frac{\partial L}{\partial q_i} = 0\;. $$

From the above equation of motion we can show that $h=E_{TM}$ whenever: $$ \dot q_i\frac{\partial T}{\partial \dot q_i} = 2T\;. \tag{A} $$

Eq. (A) is the condition that the "total mechanical energy" ($E_{TM}$) and the "Lagrangian energy function" ($h$) are equal, given that we can write $Q_i = -\frac{\partial V}{\partial q_i}$.

So, what is the generalization of this result to velocity dependent potentials?

Suppose that we want to be a little more general and write $$ V=V(q_1,q_2,\ldots,\dot q_1, \dot q_2,\ldots) $$ where now we define V via: $$ Q_i = -\frac{\partial V}{\partial q_i} + \frac{d}{dt}\frac{\partial V}{\partial \dot q_i}\;. $$

In this case, the "total mechanical energy" ($E_{TM}$) and the "Lagrangian energy function" ($h$) are equal whenever: $$ \dot q_i\frac{\partial T}{\partial \dot q_i}-\dot q_i\frac{\partial V}{\partial \dot q_i} = 2T\;. \tag{B} $$

Condition (B) reduces to condition (A) when the potential is velocity independent.


Addendum 3

OP asks a question about coordinate transformations in the comments. To answer this question, it is easiest to return to the usual case where $Q_i=-\frac{\partial V}{\partial q_i}$ and where Condition (A) then holds.

The condition that $h=E_{TM}$ is then: $$ \dot q_i\frac{\partial T}{\partial \dot q_i} = 2T\;. $$

In terms of coordinate transformations, first consider the familiar case when the coordinate transformation don't depend on velocity or time explicitly: $$ x_i = x_i(q_1,q_2,\ldots)\;. $$ $$ y_i = y_i(q_1,q_2,\ldots)\;. $$ $$ z_i = z_i(q_1,q_2,\ldots)\;. $$

In this case, it is straightforward to show using Eq. (1) above and using $$ \frac{\partial \dot x_i}{\partial \dot q_j} = \frac{\partial x_i}{\partial q_j} $$ that $$ \dot q_i\frac{\partial T}{\partial \dot q_i} = 2T\;. $$ And so, in this case, $h=E_{TM}$.

But, in general, when the $x_i$, $y_i$, and $z_i$ depend on the $\dot q_j$ as well, we instead find that: $$ h = E_{TM} + \sum_j m^{(j)}\dot x_j\left[\dot x_j - \sum_i\dot q_i\frac{\partial \dot x_j}{\partial \dot q_i}\right] + \sum_j m^{(j)}\dot y_j\left[\dot y_j - \sum_i\dot q_i\frac{\partial \dot y_j}{\partial \dot q_i}\right] + \sum_j m^{(j)}\dot z_j\left[\dot z_j - \sum_i\dot q_i\frac{\partial \dot z_j}{\partial \dot q_i}\right]\;.\tag{2} $$

The quantities in the square brackets in Eq. (2) above are zero whenever the coordinate transformations do not explicitly depend on the velocities.

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  • $\begingroup$ "The kinetic energy $T$ is defined as [...] where $x$, $y$, and $z$ are a fixed set of rectangular/cartesian coordinate axes (as you might expect), not generalized coordinates. [...] The "total mechanical energy" $E_{TM}$ is defined as: $E_{TM}=T+V$." So this definition is made with an inertial reference frame in mind. I assume an equivalent definition for "total mechanical energy" is that it's the "Lagrangian energy function" for a Lagrangian written in Cartesian coordinates in an inertia reference frame. Would that be correct? $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 10, 2023 at 12:55
  • $\begingroup$ In terms of coordinate transformation, when the cartesian coordinates are only dependent on the generalized coordinates (and not the generalized velocities), then $h=E_{TM}$. Otherwise the Lagrangian energy function can fail to equal the total energy, as indicated in Eq. (2) of Addendum 3. $\endgroup$
    – hft
    Commented Jun 10, 2023 at 19:18
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I'm adding a second answer, to specifically address the part of the question about definition of energy.

About definitions in physics in general:

I present a quote from Section 3.1 of the book 'Gravitation' by Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler.

Here and elsewhere in science, [...] that view is out of date which used to say, “Define your terms before you proceed.” All the laws and theories of physics, including the Lorentz force law, have this deep and subtle character, that they both define the concepts they use (here B and E) and make statements about these concepts. Contrariwise, the absence of some body of theory, law, and principle deprives one of the means properly to define or even to use concepts.

The above consideration is offered again in section 12.3

It is essential to recognize that in particular in physics the only way at all to define the concepts used is in the form of operational definition.

Here are some of the properties that we want the body of concepts to have:
-overall consistent with other definitions
-versatile
-expressive
-open to generalization


The precursor of potential energy goes back a long way. Christiaan Huygens was among the first to point out that there is something informative about the product of height and mass, a quantity was later named: gravitational potential energy.

Our concept of kinetic energy is correlated with the concepts of first time derivative and second time derivative.

Let there be some non-uniform acceleration $a$, from a starting point $s_0$ to an end point $s$. We state the integral over that spatial interval:

$$ \int_{s_0}^s a \ ds \tag{1} $$

To develop that integral we use the relations: $ds = v \ dt$ and $a \ dt = dv$ to change the differential, each time with corresponding change of limits:

$$ \int_{s_0}^s a \ ds = \int_{t_0}^t a \ v \ dt = \int_{t_0}^t v \ a \ dt = \int_{v_0}^v v \ dv = \tfrac{1}{2}v^2 - \tfrac{1}{2}v_0^2 \tag{2} $$

Without the intermediate steps:

$$ \int_{s_0}^s a \ ds = \tfrac{1}{2}v^2 - \tfrac{1}{2}v_0^2 \tag{3} $$

Combining $F=ma$ with (3) gives the work-energy theorem.

Take $F=ma$, and integrate both the left hand side and the right hand side.

$$ \int_{s_0}^s F \ ds = \int_{s_0}^s ma \ ds \tag{4} $$

Use (3) to develop the right hand side, the result is the work-energy theorem:

$$ \int_{s_0}^s F \ ds = \tfrac{1}{2}mv^2 - \tfrac{1}{2}mv_0^2 \tag{5} $$

The obvious choice is to define the concepts of mechanical potential energy and mechanical kinetic energy according to the work-energy theorem.

The historical precursor of the concept of kinetic energy was a quantity defined as $mv^2$, which was named 'vis viva', the living force. For instance, for Joseph Louis Lagrange the 'vis viva' concept was the concept that was available at the time, so that is what he used in his work 'Mecanique Analytique'.

Later, around mid 1800, the physics community shifted from $mv^2$ to $\tfrac{1}{2}mv^2$, because that is the definition that makes the concept of kinetic energy slot in with $F=ma$.

Change of potential energy is defined as the negative of work done

$$ \Delta E_p = \int_{s_0}^s F \ ds \tag{6} $$

By defining kinetic energy in accordance with the work-energy theorem we obtain the property:

$$ -\Delta E_p = \Delta E_k \tag{7} $$

Hence:

$$ \Delta E_k + \Delta E_p = 0 \tag{8} $$

The physical property that is expressed in (8) exists anyway; in order to obtain it in the theory of motion the definition $E_k=\tfrac{1}{2}mv^2$ must be used.


Generalization

Example: the electrodynamics of an LC circuit.

As we know: electric oscillation in an LC circuit is analogous to mechanical oscillation. The simplest case of mechanical oscillation is when the restoring force is according to Hooke's law.

$V$ voltage (electromotive force)
$I$ current in the circuit (charge through the circuit per unit of time)
$L$ Inductance (counterpart of inertia)
$C$ Capacitance

In the case of an LC circuit: the simplest case is:
-A capacitance such that the electromotive force increases linear with the amount of accumulated charge
-An inductance such that the relation between electromotive force and time derivative of is linear.

Richard Fitzpatrick gives for the total energy in the case of electric oscillation in an LC circuit:

$$ E = \tfrac{1}{2} CV^2 + \tfrac{1}{2}LI^2 \tag{2.1} $$

The expression for the energy of the current is proportional to the square of the current because change of current is the second time derivative of charge through the circuit.

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For the context of Classical Mechanics:

About the relation between the total energy of a system ($E_k+E_p$), and the Lagrangian ($E_k-E_p$):

As we know: the derivative of the total energy with respect to time is zero.


Assertion:
The operation that is performed on the Lagrangian, by the Euler-Lagrange equation, is that of taking the derivative with respect to the position coordinate.

We have an interesting juxtaposition there: derivative with respect to time on one hand and derivative with respect to position on the other hand.

Demonstration of the assertion:
The Euler-Lagrange equation, populated with $E_k$ and $E_p$, with coordinates of time and position:

$$ \frac{-E_p}{ds} - \frac{d}{dt}\frac{E_k}{dv} = 0 \tag{1} $$

(The standard Euler-Lagrange equation specifies partial differentiation of course. But in the case of the Lagrangian of Classical Mechanics the potential energy is a function of position only, and the kinetic energy is a function of velocity only, so the operation can be simplified to straightforward differentiation.)

The term that processes the kinetic energy looks as if it does something other than differentiation with respect to position. However that cannot be the case: the operations performed on potential energy and kinetic energy respectively must be dimensionally the same.

Dimensional analysis:

$$ \frac{1}{t} \frac{E_k}{\frac{s}{t}} \Leftrightarrow \frac{1}{t} \frac{t}{s} E_k \Leftrightarrow \frac{1}{s} E_k \Leftrightarrow \frac{E_k}{s} \tag{2} $$

So we see that in Classical Mechanics the Euler-Lagrange equation performs the same operation on the potential energy and on the kinetic energy: taking the derivative with respect to position coordinate.


When energy is tracked through time we have that the potential energy and the kinetic energy are counter-changing; when one is decreasing the other is increasing.

When calculus of variations is used to derive the Euler-Lagrange equation then the variation that is swept out is variation of the position coordinate. In that variation sweep of position coordinate the potential energy and kinetic energy are co-changing.

If you have two functions that are both monotonically ascending, but only parallel to each other at one coordinate, the mathematical way to find that particular coordinate is to subtract one from the other. That is why the Lagrangian of Classical Mechanics features a minus sign.

The differentiation is with respect to position, not with respect to time, so in order to identify the point in variation space such that the two energies change at the same rate: subtract one from the other.



The transformation from Lagrangian mechanics to Hamiltonian mechanics involves an inversion too. The inversion turns a minus sign into a plus sign, and thus in Classical Mechanics the Hamiltonian coincides with the total energy.

But the nature of the inversion is different. The transformation between Lagrangian mechanics and Hamiltonian mechanics is Legendre transformation, which is an abstract mathematical operation.

Incidentally, Legendre transformation is its own inverse; applying it twice recovers the original function.


In all: I think it is not the case that the total energy and the Hamiltonian are conceptually the same. I think they should be regarded as distinct, even though the expressions for them happen to coincide.

About Legrendre transform:
Article: R. K. P. Zia, Edward F. Redish, Susan R. McKay, American Journal of Physics, Volume 77, Issue 7, pp. 614-622 (2009), Making sense of the Legendre transform

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