0
$\begingroup$

A current carrying conducting wire is placed in a magnetic field, and hence, accelerates. Assuming the wire is moving in a constant magnetic field, will the electrons change direction due to the field?

If so, would that change the direction of the Lorentz force acting on the conductor?

Will the electrons ''bending'' in such a wire alter the direction of the force acting on the wire?

$\endgroup$
5
  • $\begingroup$ All the macroscopic observations in electromagnetic phenomena depend on collective behavior of electrons and ions in the matter under consideration. The forces are generated by their charges and as electrons have mobility in metals their drift velocity an spin will respond to outside collective fields. It will depend on the prboblem $\endgroup$
    – anna v
    Commented Jun 22, 2014 at 5:37
  • $\begingroup$ Well, imagine a bar conductor that is placed in a magnetic field, and the path the conductor is supposed to move in is surrounded by that field, so there can be a constant "force" due to the Lorentz, will that Lorentz force bend the charge's direction so that it will alter the conductor's direction? $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Jun 22, 2014 at 22:01
  • $\begingroup$ You are not giving sufficient boundary conditions. Electrons in magnetic fields describe helices around the magnetic field lines according to their kinetic energy.Collectively they will generate a change in current that will give rise to macroscopic phenomena.The conductor moving in a magnetic field will behave according to the macroscopic current, current /magnetic field interactions $\endgroup$
    – anna v
    Commented Jun 23, 2014 at 5:16
  • $\begingroup$ In this example : i.sstatic.net/2kBWr.gif $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Jun 23, 2014 at 9:00
  • $\begingroup$ Will the change of electron's direction cause the $F_b$ to change it's direction? And its mechanically fixed to move in one direction like the image, the force will be reduced wouldn't it? Now...there is an initial $F_b$ and a final $F_b$ that are different? the final $F_b$ represents reduced force than the initial due to the change of direction? Hope that makes sense its difficult for me to exaplain this confusion so bear with me. $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Jun 23, 2014 at 9:03

3 Answers 3

1
$\begingroup$

How are the two forces experienced in practical circumstances?

  • in a motor, the induced electric field is called back emf and it opposes the voltage applied at the terminals of the motor.
  • in a generator, the induced mechanical force is called amateur reaction or torque reaction and it tends to make the generator slow down or oppose whatever machine is been used to turn the generator.

In an ideal motor or generator (100% efficiency), the change in force would only be directional i.e.,

  • from electric (Iy) to mechanical (Fy) or
  • from mechanical (vx) to electric (Ey).

Oops now I feel like I have written a text book!

$\endgroup$
1
  • $\begingroup$ Your answers are wonderful, btw welcome to the site! $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Jun 24, 2014 at 8:20
1
$\begingroup$

Your question is a bit vague because it does not state whether the movement of the wire (and its electrons) is restricted to a particular direction.

When free electrons move in a magnetic field, they adopt a circular path given by the left-hand rule (Lorentz Force). Since only the component of motion that is perpendicular to the field will be converted into circular motion, the electrons could move in a helical path (shaped like a spring).

(Actually, much of the time the electrons would move in expanding or contracting spiral paths because circular paths can only be attained within a specially engineered environment such as a cyclotron or klystron tube. These are used to generate microwaves).

If the wire is free, it would also move in a circle because the free electrons in it are also trying to move in circles. The idea of a free wire is vague because current carrying wires have to be

  • shaped as a circu-lar loop to complete the circu-lar circu-it and
  • supported mechanically from some kind of pivot.

The loop shape and mechanical support significantly alter the direction of the net forces acting on the wire. Some parts of the loop may be outside the magnetic field or may interact with the same magnetic field at different angles.

In most theoretical cases and in machines such as motors:

  • the electrons are restricted to move in only one direction which is along the length of the wire,
  • the wire is restricted to move in only one direction perpendicular to the direction of current and perpendicular to the magnetic field,
  • only one small straight section of the wire (current element) is considered for theoretical analysis,
  • the analysis is only considered for short displacement where the motion is assumed to be along a straight line.

I suggest you play around with a real magnet, and real current carrying wires to see exactly how the shape, length, restrictions on a wire affect the direction of force.


Thanks for clarifying the question. I will assume a short piece of straight wire restricted to move perpendicular to the magnetic field.

Assume that

  • the magnetic field is in the z-direction as Bx,
  • the length of wire is in the y-direction as Ly,
  • the wire is moving in the x-direction at a velocity vx.

The electrons in the wire will have two perpendicular components of motion;

  • in the y-direction along the length of wire due to the emf / voltage applied or current Iy
  • in the x direction due to the motion of the wire at a velocity vx

Consequently, there will be two forces:-

  • MECHANICAL force Fx due to a magnetic field Bz acting on a CURRENT carrying wire (due to the motor effect given by the Left-Hand-Rule;
  • ELECTROMOTIVE force (emf) Fy due to a magnetic field Bz acting on a MOVING wire (due to the generator effect (Faraday's Induction Law) given by the Right-Hand-Rule.

These TWO forces can are expressed mathematically as follows (note the vector / direction notation);

  • Fx = Bz . Iy . Ly
  • -Fy = Bz . vy . Qy

Note that the term electromotive force refers to potential difference or voltage (energy per charge) and not force in the acceleration (Newtons) sense. The term emf can only be expressed as force if the charge Qy along the wire is known. Since we don't know how much charge there is in the wire (or how much of it is contributing to the current), the emf is better left in potential difference or voltage Vemf-y form as follows;

  • -Vemf-y = Bz . vy . Ly

Or as an electric field Ey as follows:

  • -Ey = Bz . vy

(Note the minus sign is due to the conventional positive current and Lenz's Law)

Note also that the electrons do not care whether the motion is electrical or mechanical; all they care about is moving in a circular path according to Lorentz's Law. Both the MECHANICAL force and the ELECTROMOTIVE force are exactly the same manifestation of Lorentz's Law viewed from different perspectives i.e.,

  • one is Electric (current) -> Magnetic (field) -> Motion (i.e., how motors operate)
  • the other is Motion -> Magnetic -> Electric (field) (i.e., how generators operate)

Back to your question

"...I'm concerned about that change in direction being a reduction of my calculated force..."

Your statement is essentially correct, except that it implies a simplistic case of scalar reduction. The motion of the wire due to the first force Fx will cause a change in force and direction by causing (actually inducing) a second force Fy that is perpendicular to the first.

The two forces are MUTUALLY PERPENDICULAR and should be expressed as vectors and not as a simple case of addition or subtraction.

The mutually perpendicular nature is what keeps electrons moving in circles according to Lorentz's Law (see how mass spectroscopy, cyclotrons and CRTs work).

$\endgroup$
6
  • $\begingroup$ The wire itself is restricted to move in "one" direction,that is perpendicular to the magnetic field. Now, the current itself I assumed it to go in wire's length as its direction... I mean, it just one wire that is connected to a circuit. My concern is with the change in direction, and since I mechanically forced the wire to move in one direction... I feared the predicted force via this formula: $F$=$IL$ $x$ $B$, would be much less do to that? I'm concerned about that change in direction being a reduction of my calculated force. $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Jun 23, 2014 at 8:56
  • $\begingroup$ Now that answer is even better! But I assume the reduction to $F_x$ caused by the secondary "induced" force is what we call motional EMF which seems to be $F_y$? $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Jun 23, 2014 at 19:41
  • $\begingroup$ Imagine this for a bit: If the the motion caused by $F_x$ didn't not cause "change" in a magnetic flux to induced (BackEMF) that is $F_y$, $F_x$ would stay the same as calculated via the right hard rule & Lorentz formula $F$ = $IL$ x $B$ and in that imaginary cause the force would stay the same acting on the conductor all the time, based on the above formula $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Jun 23, 2014 at 20:01
  • 1
    $\begingroup$ Yes. You're right. I forgot to mention the assumption that the magnetic field of the magnet is not distorted by the magnetic field of the wire. The distortion would be a concern if the main magnetic field is weak compared to that of the current. It does, however, affect the performance of motors and generators at high loads. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 24, 2014 at 4:28
  • $\begingroup$ anita, what if the wire accelerates really fast that it's velocity is higher than the electron's drift velocity? $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Jun 25, 2014 at 22:17
0
$\begingroup$

The external force on the current carrying charges in the wire is approximately given by

$$ \int \rho\mathbf E_{ext} + \mathbf j\times \mathbf B_{ext}\,d^3\mathbf x. $$ where the $\mathbf E_{ext}, \mathbf B_{ext}$ are external fields.

The current density $$ \mathbf j = \rho \mathbf v, $$

where $\rho$ is charge density and $\mathbf v$ is their velocity. When the wire moves, the velocity of the wire adds to the velocity of the charges with respect to the wire, so $\mathbf j$ changes. The external magnetic force thus changes too, so that is always perpendicular to $\mathbf v$.

$\endgroup$
5
  • $\begingroup$ Could you clarify a bit more please. $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Jun 23, 2014 at 8:49
  • $\begingroup$ What is that you don't understand? $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 23, 2014 at 10:24
  • $\begingroup$ The external magnetic force is reduced correct? You are trying to explain back EMF...? And how it effects the force? $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Jun 25, 2014 at 7:06
  • $\begingroup$ Why would the force be reduced? I did not mean to say anything about electromotive force. I was talking about ponderomotive force - force that acts on the wire. $\endgroup$ Commented Jun 25, 2014 at 14:39
  • $\begingroup$ What if, the wire has a high force that accelerates is, faster than the velocity of the drift electrons? $\endgroup$
    – Pupil
    Commented Jun 25, 2014 at 22:18

Your Answer

By clicking “Post Your Answer”, you agree to our terms of service and acknowledge you have read our privacy policy.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged or ask your own question.