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I clearly don't understand something about Kirchhoff's law. For instance, consider this circuit I want to quantise

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My guess would be that the voltage loop equations should be \begin{align} \text{Voltage loops: }&\begin{cases} V_{C_1} + V_{L_1} = \frac{1}{C_1} Q_{1} + L_1 \dot{I}_1 = 0 \\ V_{C_2} + V_{L_2} = \frac{1}{C_2} Q_2 - L_2\dot{I}_4 = 0 \end{cases}\notag\\ \text{Current junctions: }&\begin{cases} I_1 = I_2 + I_3 \\ I_2 = I_4 + I_5. \end{cases}\notag \end{align} And by using the current junction conditions we can write $I_1$ and $I_4$ in terms of the capacitors charge: \begin{equation} \begin{cases} \frac{1}{C_1} Q_{1} + L_1 (\dot{I}_2 + \dot{I}_3) = \frac{1}{C_1} Q_{1} + L_1 (\ddot{Q}_g + \ddot{Q}_1) = 0\\ \frac{1}{C_2} Q_2 + L_2(\dot{I}_2 - \dot{I}_5) = \frac{1}{C_2} Q_2 - L_2(\ddot{Q}_g - \ddot{Q}_2) = 0. \end{cases}\notag \end{equation} I assume we can eliminate $Q_g$ by charge conservation, $Q_g = Q_1 - Q_2$ (is this wrong?) \begin{equation} \begin{cases} \frac{1}{C_1} Q_{1} + L_1 (2\ddot{Q}_1 - \ddot{Q}_2) = 0\\ \frac{1}{C_2} Q_2 + L_2(2\ddot{Q}_2 - \ddot{Q}_1) = 0. \end{cases}\notag \end{equation} But those equations are off, they should be \begin{equation} \begin{cases} L_1 \ddot{Q_1} + 2C_g(\ddot{Q_1} -\ddot{Q_2}) + \frac{1}{C_1}Q_1 = 0\\ L_2 \ddot{Q_2} +2C_g(\ddot{Q_2} -\ddot{Q_1}) + \frac{1}{C_2}Q_2= 0 \end{cases}\notag \end{equation}


Can you apply Kirchhoff's laws like this?

I believe my reasoning is sound, but clearly, something is off if $C_g$ disappears!

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  • $\begingroup$ hint: Charge conservation is not that the sum of charges on the three capacitors is constant but rather that the total charge in the whole circuit is a constant and is expressed by the two node conditions: $I_1=I_2+I_3$ and $I_2=I_4+I_5$. This is because the charges move in and out of the inductors and capacitors. How would you write down charge conservation for a pair a simple parallel LC resonator? $\endgroup$
    – hyportnex
    Commented Oct 2 at 10:18
  • $\begingroup$ Previous question by OP: physics.stackexchange.com/q/829671/174766 $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 2 at 10:28
  • $\begingroup$ @hyportnex I see, so indeed $Q_g \neq Q_1 - Q_2$ (which dispels the worry of their sign). Then, if up to that point my reasoning is correct, my only way of removing $Q_g$ is by finding an equation for it and substituting. That would be, again by Kirchoff: $$L_2 \dot{I}_4 + \frac{Q_g}{C_g} - \frac{Q_1}{C_1} = 0.$$ So $$Q_g = C_g(\frac{Q_1}{C_1} -L_2 \dot{I}_4).$$ We substitute this into $$\frac{Q_{1}}{C_1} + L_1 (\ddot{Q}_g + \ddot{Q}_1) = 0$$ and obtain $$\frac{Q_1}{C_1} + L_1(C_g(\frac{\ddot{Q}_1}{C_1} -L_2 \dddot{I}_4) + \ddot{Q}_1)$$ and similarly for $Q_2$. But this seems off too? $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 2 at 10:59
  • $\begingroup$ @hyportnex by off I mean that, if my last equation above was right too, then it would imply that $$L_1( \frac{\ddot{Q_1}}{C_1} - L_2 \dddot{I}_4 ) = 2(\ddot{Q_1} - \ddot{Q_2}),$$ which I don't see how. Also, there has to be an easier way of doing this haha $\endgroup$ Commented Oct 2 at 11:07
  • $\begingroup$ With knowledge of the sign convention which you are using it is. not possible to answer your question with certainty. $\endgroup$
    – Farcher
    Commented Oct 2 at 12:45

1 Answer 1

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I found the answer to my question and I'm going to share it here for future learners, despite going against some haughty moderators' criteria, I think it constitutes a good question.


First of all, indeed $Q_g = Q_1 - Q_2$ or any similar reasoning is incorrect. However, the rest of the equations were well posed. Let me reproduce them here in addition with the final missing step:

I want to find the charge $Q_1$ and $Q_2$ of $C_1$ and $C_2$ to quantise the problem. My guess for the Kirchhoff voltage loops and current equations would be

\begin{align} \text{Voltage loops: }&\begin{cases} V_{C_1} + V_{L_1} = \frac{1}{C_1} Q_{1} + L_1 \dot{I}_1 = 0 \\ V_{C_2} + V_{L_2} = \frac{1}{C_2} Q_2 - L_2\dot{I}_4 = 0 \end{cases}\notag\\ \text{Current junctions: }&\begin{cases} I_1 = I_2 + I_3 \\ I_2 = I_4 + I_5. \end{cases}\notag \end{align} And by using the current junction conditions we can write $I_1$ and $I_4$ in terms of the capacitors charge: \begin{equation} \begin{cases} \frac{1}{C_1} Q_{1} + L_1 (\dot{I}_2 + \dot{I}_3) = \frac{1}{C_1} Q_{1} + L_1 (\ddot{Q}_g + \ddot{Q}_1) = 0\\ \frac{1}{C_2} Q_2 + L_2(\dot{I}_2 - \dot{I}_5) = \frac{1}{C_2} Q_2 - L_2(\ddot{Q}_g - \ddot{Q}_2) = 0. \end{cases}\notag \end{equation}

Now, I want to eliminate $Q_g$ since I'm only interested in $Q_1$ and $Q_2$. For this, we can read off one more loop equation for the loop concerning only the capacitors. This is

$$\frac{Q_2}{C_2} + \frac{Q_g}{C_g} - \frac{Q_1}{C_1} = 0, $$

which is the correct expression for the charge conservation. With this, we yield

\begin{equation} \begin{cases} \frac{1}{C_1} Q_{1} + L_1 (\ddot{Q}_g + \ddot{Q}_1)=\frac{1}{C_1} Q_{1} + L_1\ddot{Q}_1 + C_g L_1(\frac{\ddot{Q}_1}{C_1} -\frac{\ddot{Q}_2}{C_2} ) = 0\\ \frac{1}{C_2} Q_2 - L_2(\ddot{Q}_g - \ddot{Q}_2) =\frac{1}{C_2} Q_{2} + L_2\ddot{Q}_2 + C_g L_2(\frac{\ddot{Q}_2}{C_2} -\frac{\ddot{Q}_1}{C_1} )= 0, \end{cases}\notag \end{equation}

which can of course be symmetrised a bit by dividing \begin{equation} \begin{cases} \frac{1}{L_1 C_1} Q_{1} + \ddot{Q}_1 + C_g (\frac{\ddot{Q}_1}{C_1} -\frac{\ddot{Q}_2}{C_2} ) = 0\\ \frac{1}{C_2 L_2} Q_{2} + \ddot{Q}_2 + C_g(\frac{\ddot{Q}_2}{C_2} -\frac{\ddot{Q}_1}{C_1} )= 0. \end{cases}\notag \end{equation}

It will be easier to work with the variable $\Phi_n = Q_n/C_n $ instead so that we can read off the lagrangian easily. With that we have

\begin{equation} \begin{cases} \frac{1}{L_1} \Phi_{1} + C_1 \ddot{\Phi}_1 + C_g(\ddot{\Phi}_1 -\ddot{\Phi}_2 ) = 0\\ \frac{1}{ L_2} \Phi_{2} + C_2 \ddot{\Phi}_2 + C_g(\ddot{\Phi}_2 -\ddot{\Phi}_1 )= 0, \end{cases}\notag \end{equation}

with which we reverse engineer the Lagrangian to be

$$ \mathcal{L}(\Phi_1,\Phi_2;\dot{\Phi}_1,\dot{\Phi}_2) = \frac{C_1}{2}\dot{\Phi}_1^2 - \frac{1}{2}\frac{\Phi_1^2}{L_1} + \frac{C_2}{2}\dot{\Phi}_2^2 - \frac{1}{2}\frac{\Phi_2^2}{L_2} + \frac{C_g}{2}\left(\dot{\Phi}_1 - \dot{\Phi}_2 \right)^2, $$

as desired.

Quantasing the problem is now trivial. First, we perform a Legendre transformation to obtain the classical Hamiltonian

$$ \mathcal{H} = \sum_n\left( \dot{\Phi_n} \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \dot{\Phi_n}}\right) - \mathcal{L} = \frac{C_1}{2}\dot{\Phi}_1^2 + \frac{1}{2}\frac{\Phi_1^2}{L_1} + \frac{C_2}{2}\dot{\Phi}_2^2 + \frac{1}{2}\frac{\Phi_2^2}{L_2} + \frac{C_g}{2}(\dot{\Phi}_1 - \dot{\Phi}_2 )^2$$

which written in terms of canonical conjugates, $ p_n \doteq \frac{\partial \mathcal{L}}{\partial \dot{\Phi_n}} = C_n \dot{\Phi}_n $, is simply

$$ \mathcal{H} = \frac{1}{2C_1}p_1^2 + \frac{1}{2}\frac{x_1^2}{L_1} + \frac{1}{2C_2}p_2^2 + \frac{1}{2}\frac{x_2^2}{L_2} + \frac{C_g}{2}\left(\frac{p_1}{C_1} - \frac{p_2}{C_2} \right)^2.$$

We could finish here and conclude these are two harmonic oscillators coupled via quadratic terms and call it a day. However, we can simplify the coupling term a bit further by grouping the terms proportional to momentum squared:

$$ \mathcal{H} = \left(\frac{1}{2C_1} + \frac{C_g}{2C_1^2}\right)p_1^2 + \frac{1}{2}\frac{x_1^2}{L_1} + \left(\frac{1}{2C_2} + \frac{C_g}{2C_2^2}\right)p_2^2 + \frac{1}{2}\frac{x_2^2}{L_2} - C_g\frac{p_1}{C_1} \frac{p_2}{C_2},$$

this was at the expense of making the oscillators dependent on the coupling $C_g$ which isnt necessary. We now define bosonic creation and annihilation operators,

$$ x_n = \sqrt{\frac{\lambda_n}{2}}(a^\dagger_n + a_n), \quad p_n = i\sqrt{\frac{1}{2 \lambda_n}}(a^\dagger_n - a_n), \quad \text{together with} \quad [x,p] = i \iff [a_n, a_n^\dagger]= 1.$$ with all other commutators vanishing, and leave us the freedom to choose $\lambda_n $ wisely. A wise choice for the diagonalisation is $\lambda_n = \sqrt{2L_n \left(\frac{1}{2C_n} + \frac{C_g}{2C_n^2}\right)} $. With this, we have

$$ \mathcal{H} = \sum_n \sqrt{\frac{1}{L_n}\left(\frac{1}{C_n} + \frac{C_g}{C_n^2}\right)} \left(a^\dagger_n a_n +\frac{1}{2}\right) + \frac{C_g}{2\sqrt{\lambda_1\lambda_2}}\left(a^\dagger_1 - a_1\right)\left(a^\dagger_2 - a_2\right).$$

It is clear in the limit $C_g=0$ this reduces to two independent LC oscillators.

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