# Do We Need Maxwell's Equations Since They Fail to Account for An Experimental Fact at Least in One Occasion?

This question is an outgrowth of What is the difference between electric potential, potential difference (PD), voltage and electromotive force (EMF)? where @sb1 mentioned Faraday's law. However, Faraday's law as part of Maxwell's equations cannot account for the voltage measured between the rim and the axis of a Faraday generator because $\frac {\partial B} {\partial t} = 0$. It would've been a different story if the derivative were $\frac {dB} {dt}$ but it isn't. A palliative solution to this problem is given by invoking the Lorentz force. However, Lorentz force cannot be derived from Maxwell's equation while it must be if we are to consider Maxwell's equations truly describing electromagnetic phenomena. As is known, according to the scientific method, one only experimental fact is needed to be at odds with a theory for the whole theory to collapse. How do you reconcile the scientific method with the above problem?.

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I am somewhat sympathetic to your situation. It's good you are not discouraged to ask questions which confuse you. Unfortunately, I don't have much time answering this question now. Just wish to mention that there is absolutely nothing in this, which violates Maxwell's equations. One more friendly advice if you allow me to give. Think a thousand times before expressing such audacious statement like "Maxwell's equations fail in this phenomenon". You possibly don't know what you are saying! –  user1355 Oct 7 '11 at 5:00
I'll wait for you to find time to answer the above question. I assure you, however that you will not be able to. Maxwell's equations cannot derive the voltage observed in the unipolar generator which is enough to invalidate them. If you claim that I don't know what I'm saying then explain how they derive said voltage. –  ganzewoort Oct 7 '11 at 12:09
I don't know why you expect Maxwell's equations to derive the said voltage in the first place! This is to do with how a charged particle in motion should interact with a magnetic field which is given by Lorenz force as correctly pointed out by David. I shall not repeat him. Lorentz force is the relativistically invariant force law which is essential for a correct treatment of the dynamics of charged particles. –  user1355 Oct 7 '11 at 13:29
As already pointed out by David, Maxwell's equations only describe the dynamics of the electromagnetic field. The dynamics of charged particle requires to use the Lorentz force law. In the classical electrodynamics the charged particles and electromagnetic field, both are real. It is a dualistic theory in this sense. If only the particles can be expressed as a local concentration of the field and its movement as a changing field then only you can hope to find the dynamics of charged particles from field equations alone. There were failed attempts in these lines. cont... –  user1355 Oct 7 '11 at 16:09
Could you supply a reference or a clarifying article to expound on your claim that "Faraday's law as part of Maxwell's equations cannot account for the voltage measured between the rim and the axis of a Faraday generator"? I have never heard this claim before and I am curious where it comes from. –  Scott Griffiths Sep 23 at 18:12

I'm not sure if this addresses what you're actually asking (if not I'll convert it to a comment), but Maxwell's equations only describe the dynamics of the EM field itself. The Lorentz force law is something separate, which describes the field's effect on charged particles. I've never heard any serious physicist claim that you can, or should be able to, derive the force law from Maxwell's equations.

Classical electrodynamics takes both Maxwell's equations and the Lorentz force law as "postulates."

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Well, the fact is, however, that Maxwell's equations cannot account for the voltage observed in the unipolar generator. So, we have at least one experimental fact which they cannot account for and that is enough, according to the scientific method, to abandon these equations. It's a separate story if we don't want to abide by the scientific method any more. –  ganzewoort Oct 6 '11 at 19:23
Also, Maxwell's equations cannot be taken as postulates as, for example Newton's second law cannot be taken as a postulate, because a plethora of experimental facts can be described exactly by these equations. Thus, they need not be postulated. And, yet, there's at least one experiment where they don't hold. I'd be curious to know how Maxwell's equations account for the emf of a Galvanic cell in an open circuit as well. –  ganzewoort Oct 6 '11 at 19:27
No, that's not what the scientific method is. After all, the same logic would tell you that we should abandon Newton's laws because they cannot account for bremsstrahlung radiation. When you have a fact which your theory cannot account for, all it means is that you've exceeded the domain of applicability of your theory. And systems which involve charged particles reacting to an EM field, like the generator (as I understand it), are outside the domain of applicability of Maxwell's equations. –  David Z Oct 6 '11 at 19:34
@ganzewoort (2 comments up): that would be why I put "postulates" in quotes. I was using it to mean the foundational equations of the theory, from which other results are generally derived - not postulates in the sense of mathematical axioms. Anyway, if you would like to continue this let's take it to Physics Chat. –  David Z Oct 6 '11 at 19:36
@ganzewoort For a derivation of the Lorentz force from Maxwell's equations see section 4.2.4 here. –  Fenzik Sep 27 at 22:06

Regarding the unipolar generator:

The stationary rod (or leads on a multi-meter) is actually part of the circuit. You will get the same result with a stationary disk and rotating rod.

For short periods of time, it can be approximated by 2 wires going out from the center with the outer ends touching. As long as the wires are moving through the magnetic field at different velocities, the voltage drops across them will be different, resulting in a current through the wires.

The question of whether or not a rotating magnet will induce a voltage in a stationary disk is irrelevant to the functioning of this type of generator, since it would just add the SAME voltage to both parts of the circuit.

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There are three separate possibilities:

• A theory correctly predicts an experiment result
• A theory predicts something but an experiment contradicts it.
• A theory makes no prediction whatsoever regarding some experimental result.

You're treating the second and third possibility as if they were the same thing, but they're entirely different.

For example, let's take Newton's laws (of motion and of gravity), as originally understood (i.e. as exact laws, not just as an approximate theory in a certain limit which is how we think of these laws today)...

An example of the first is that Newton's laws correctly predict the moon's motion orbiting earth.

An example of the second is that Newton's laws predict that there can be no perihelion precession of Mercury, whereas measurements showed that is actually a perihelion precession of Mercury. So this contradicts Newton's laws.

An example of the third is the fact that uranium undergoes radioactive decay. Newton's laws make no prediction that uranium does or does not undergo radioactive decay. It's outside the scope of the laws.

Every theory (except a "theory of everything" like string theory) has things in the third category. There's nothing wrong with that. The stuff in the third category is not evidence against the theory.

So let's talk about Maxwell's equations (as they are normally written today, which is a bit different than how Maxwell originally defined them). Maxwell's equations by themselves make no predictions whatsoever about any kind of electromagnetic forces, because there are no electromagnetic forces in the equations, just electric fields and magnetic fields.

EMF is in the category of electromagnetic forces (it's not exactly a force, but it's an integral of force over distance divided by charge). Therefore anything you say about electromagnetic forces or EMFs is in the third category---something that Maxwell's equations by themselves make no prediction about.

That is why we have the Lorentz Force Law! Maxwell's equations plus the Lorentz force law DO in fact make all kinds of predictions about electromagnetic forces and EMFs. These predictions, yes including the EMF generated by a homopolar (Faraday) generator, are correct (first category).

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I'll take a slightly different take on the question than the other answers already posted, because I want to address a different side of the question.

Just because a theory makes incorrect predictions doesn't make it useless. Take Newtonian gravity, for instance. It doesn't correctly predict the bending of light or the precession of Mercury, both of which were triumphs of general relativity. Yet we still learn Newtonian gravity in high school. Why? Because it is more convenient to do calculations using $F=G \frac{m_1m_2}{r^2}$ than using $R_{ab}-\frac{1}{2}Rg_{ab}+ \Lambda g_{ab}=\frac{8 \pi G}{c^4}T_{ab}$.

I don't know much about Maxwell's equations (and hence can't verify or dispute your statement), but I can say that if a theory makes an accurate prediction in one scenario, it is useful. It may not be right in all circumstances, but if it is easier to calculate with, I think most of us will be happy to use it.

By the way, this isn't an attempt at the bounty. As I've already said, I believe another user deserves it.

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